@Allan
“I’d like to ask for your feedback and advice. How can I write (and be read) about this? Do you speak in Sweden and the US about equally? Who is interested in hearing you? Is there much of an audience for these topics in the US? Your site does not have the hundreds of comments and discussions I wish it had. In short, nobody, neither feminists, traditional men, nor pro-feminist men are interested in honest, detailed discussions of male experience. Perhaps the most interested group it seems to me would be heterosexual women who find feminism far too unsympathetic to the men they know and love.”

I’m Swedish, I live in Sweden and I’ve given all my lectures here except for one in the US, one in the Netherlands and one in Denmark. Who’s interested in hearing me? A few social services have been interested. Several father’s groups have been interested. I’ve set up a couple of lectures/trainings with a colleague, with several different professions present. It’s slow work in one sense, but OTOH I’ve only been doing it for a year, and I’ve alreade been on national television, so I guess I should be happy.

My Swedish blog is much more alive than this one. I got over 460 comments on one post recently. I also update it much more frequently. Most of the readers are men, but also some women. I feel that my goal going forward needs to be to reach out to the “average and normal” men and women. Not the hard-core feminists or the hard-core traditionalists. But the group of people who will understand men’s issues if you give them the chance to do so.

I speak from my emotions quite a lot, and my gf frequently tells me she so appreciates that in me. It’s just when she says, “You’re really not like a straight guy.” that I am troubled. I don’t know. Is that a compliment or an insult? lol

Yeah, I know the bargain idea is frightfully crass. I take that back.

There’s the opposite-to-boys slut-shaming training.
That would be called virgin-shaming.

Rape is one of the earliest, biggest issues for feminists isn’t it? They (and I) say “we want you to help us change that culture toward much less rape”. Ok… what do men what from feminists?
I think you’re setting yourself up for disaster with feminists if you take that attitude because they will interpret (perhaps rightfully) as thinking you are only interested in helping feminists when you yourself can get something out of it. Personally I would like to help change the culture but I refuse to work with anyone that thinks women’s experiences with rape (or women’s experiences in general) somehow trump my own meaning my own experiences should just be left on the back burner to gotten to when they feel like it. Its going to be hard for feminists to reach men in large numbers until they realize that they just can’t expect men to drop their own concerns and take up helping women because its the bigger issue or more important (because when you think about it that’s chivalry).

What kind of work are women doing? Besides radical feminists blaming men for every kind of gender problem we have?

I’m not sure the scope of your question on women’s work. There’s the last 40 years of the feminist movement. All the shelters, changes to law, books written and women’s studies departments created…

Feminists outline some selective part of men’s behavior and then simplistically attribute some seemingly conscious motive to it to slander and blame men and support theories of oppression. The radical feminists seem to do nothing much but this. As you put it, “One of the most crucial errors of feminism is that it personalizes the impersonal.“ There’s much, much more to men than this but men aren’t telling their story and adequately refuting feminist claims.

For example, here’s an argument I would like to make. The violence in men is not directed at women to oppress them. It doesn’t serve us. It’s not our inherent nature. Men do not impose this on other men by choice (making it their fault). Instead as you say, it’s a societal structure imposed on boys by men and a somewhat lesser extent women originating in the time honored role of men as protectors and warriors and the competition between males for females (bateman principle). Boys do not have any say in this, they are victims of it in fact. The gradual adoption of this role is viewed as natural not gradual indoctrination. The very competitive aspect of male roles leads to the enforcement behavior that sustains and reinforces it. It becomes self-perpetuating or as you say, “Patriarchy serves itself“. The power and force of this experience is woefully underestimated. It’s very difficult to escape. It can partly be understood in the context of psychological trauma (1). Demanding of some men to be non-violent is somewhat like telling a rape victim to “just get over it” and stop being afraid. It’s failing to appreciate the nature, complexity and power of this kind of life experience. Unlike rape, there is no single traumatic event. It is the combination of thousands of experiences that leads to trauma effects as in cases of pervasive emotional abuse or childhood neglect. The simplistic characterizations of men by feminists then is best seen as simply victim blaming at it’s best.

(1). Howell, E.F. (2002). “Good Girls,” Sexy “Bad Girls,” and Warriors: The Role of Trauma and Dissociation in the Creation and Reproduction of Gender. Journal of Trauma & Dissociation, Volume 3, Issue 4 September 2002 , pages 5 - 32 .

Abstract
The thesis of this article is that substantially, “femininity” and “masculinity,” the gendered personality styles so common in our culture, are direct and indirect outcomes of trauma, and reflective of dissociation. In addition to being direct sequellae of trauma, these “post-traumatic styles” may become consensually accepted modes of interaction by virtue of vicarious and anticipatory trauma. The patterns tend to differ for females and males, reflecting social forces, including sex-typed child-rearing patterns, and biological predispositions interacting with trauma. While presenting self-states of abused girls and women often tend to be compliant, childlike, passive, masochistic, “good,” vulnerable, sweet, and dependent-characteristics often considered stereotypical for females, posttraumatic aggressivity of boys may appear indistinguishable from stereotypical “masculinity.” Aggressivity and violence reproduce trauma, which then contributes to the reproduction of gender.

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=jour~content=a904343574

This is just one of many aspects of masculinity that bears exploring. Various aspects then interact in a self-reinforcing manner to create the rather rigid nature of masculinity. It’s really quite complex. Shame and how it works interests me. Sexual violence, issues in expendability.

I’d like to ask for your feedback and advice. How can I write (and be read) about this? Do you speak in Sweden and the US about equally? Who is interested in hearing you? Is there much of an audience for these topics in the US? Your site does not have the hundreds of comments and discussions I wish it had. In short, nobody, neither feminists, traditional men, nor pro-feminist men are interested in honest, detailed discussions of male experience. Perhaps the most interested group it seems to me would be heterosexual women who find feminism far too unsympathetic to the men they know and love.

Nice one, I just gave you several perspectives in my comment above.

“Men, boys are subjected to enormous pressure to prove their manhood through sex and to show proficiency at sex right away. It’s an impossible position.”

Agreed. We need to support boys in developing a strong male identity that is not coupled to sexual conquests.

“Boys, men aren’t encouraged to explore all their vulnerabilities in early sexual learning.”

Agreed. We need to teach boys that being vulnerable and authentic is actually a position of strength, while feeling that you need to know how to please a woman (or that it’s your job to please her more than vice versa) is actually a position of weakness.

“But whose doing all the work? Women. Men are doing comparatively nothing.”

What kind of work are women doing? Besides radical feminists blaming men for every kind of gender problem we have?

That’s a very interesting example, and there are so many things to tease apart.

I put this before you for several reasons. I want to say I think this isn’t a rare or odd example, but one that represents a lot of very common issues. I’d be curious what your list of things to tease apart is, but here’s some of mine.

Men, boys are subjected to enormous pressure to prove their manhood through sex and to show proficiency at sex right away. It’s an impossible position. I hear women saying they even expect men, boys to “know what they are doing” and it doesn’t seem to be her responsibility to teach him what she likes. He’s supposed to just know, or at least it’s his job to just figure it out. I felt pretty ashamed of being a virgin while I was one. And ashamed of what I didn’t know about. I got routinely ridiculed if I didn’t act all knowledgeable about sex as a teen. This is NOT acknowledged enough.

Boys, men aren’t encouraged to explore all their vulnerabilities in early sexual learning. I know I went through all that with a single word from an adult man except for the “Hey, hey, hey… go for it boy!” (big grin)

I think her being unclear was part of having trouble feeling confident and good about her sexual needs. There’s the opposite-to-boys slut-shaming training. A sigma of sex before marriage while for him it’s a badge of honor. The whole thing is a setup. “I’m so confused and I’ve lost all my self-respect!” I want to say here she just doesn’t seem to have reconciled, integrated both her desires to have sex with the pre-marital virginity her self-respect requires. That’s her impossible position.

There’s something to that erotic treatment of idk, sort of rapish sex for women too, which again, is not acknowledged enough.
True, men switch on and are ready for penetration really quick compared to women.

One thing I don’t understand though, is why she said “Let’s stop”, as if it’s a suggestion or something that they are doing together?

Now **I** have to ask… You you kidding??? lol… But then again, I understand what you’re saying too. Have you never loved someone or had deep feelings for someone? OF COURSE, she felt, thought they were doing something together. Very close and very, very together. You might say she was sort of assuming there would be consent too.

I noticed you didn’t answer all my questions. I’m not chiding you but I wonder how important you think all these issues are. I’ll give you my answers in a nutshell.

what to do? Change the culture.

Do you accept that she may be effected her whole life by this? Yes in short. It won’t be easily forgotten.

How big a deal is this sort of thing? Here, I mostly just trust women and you know what they will say.

Who’s responsible? Both men and women. Perhaps about equally I don’t know. But whose doing all the work? Women. Men are doing comparatively nothing.

What should men and women be doing in terms of the culture that leads to this? Like you seem to think, we need men and women to be equal partners in doing this. The current view is so one-sided and will never engender equality and mutual respect. A good step would be to articulate a point of view with mutual respect and an action plan that both men and women could get behind with men showing up in about equal numbers to women.

First of all, should a man (or a woman) stop when the partner says “no” or “stop”? Of course! If the consent is actively removed then the sex should stop ASAP.

Things can sometimes be complicated by body language though. If a woman says “Oh please, let’s stop” while she’s unzipping your trousers, then she’s sending mixed messages, and the main message is probably that she is undressing you and seducing you.

However, in the above example, the body language was neutral, as far as I can understand, and then the spoken words are the main message (and should be enough to stop all sexual action).

One thing I don’t understand though, is why she said “Let’s stop”, as if it’s a suggestion or something that they are doing together? A much clearer message is “I want you to stop”. However, even what she said should be enough to get the message across.

So what is the woman’s responsibility in the above example? She’s certainly not responsible for him not stopping, but she is responsible for playing with fire in very irresponsible ways. If she does not want to have sex she shouldn’t get naked with him! And she certainly shouldn’t do it twice, and be OK with him kind of entering her once. By crossing her own boundaries, 2-3 times she’s sending a signal to him that she is gearing up to have sex with him, and that is not a good thing if she really doesn’t want to.

To create a safer sexual environment for men and women I think we have to acknowledge that our sexualities function somewhat differently. Women tend to get aroused more gradually, and for men it can be more of a switch on - switch off kind of thing. This means that a young woman who is comfortable with exploring her sexuality very gradually might not realize that the young man interprets what they are doing very differently, and vice versa. If they get naked and aroused together he will interpret that as a preparation to have sex, while she might see it as experimentation and intimacy but not a prelude to sex (obviously a lot of the time it will mean foreplay for her too…). Nowadays it’s politically incorrect to talk about differences between men and women but I think that we do need to walk down that road.

Should men (and women) always stop when the partner says stop? Without a doubt. But we need to teach young women and men how to avoid complicated situations as much as possible, and not to get themselves into sexual situations if they don’t want to have sex.

In the beginning, I told my boyfriend that I don’t want to have sex outside of marriage and he accepted that.
But then, about a week ago, I made a very big mistake and allowed him to take my clothes off completely and enter my vagina slightly. I know it was wrong and the following day I told him that I didn’t feel right about it and I didn’t want us to do that again.
Unfortunately, the very next day, we were alone together, and we got a bit carried away again. But when he tried to “enter” me, I said: “I think we should stop now, let’s stop — ok? Please, let’s stop now. I don’t feel right about this.” But he didn’t… he spread my legs anyway and got on top of me. And he penetrated me quite deeply. As he was doing it, I was saying, “Stop, please, I really think we should stop,” but I didn’t push him away. I didn’t physically PUSH him or something to make him stop.
I was quite shook up afterwards but I didn’t know if I should be angry with him or not. We are still together and I don’t even think he thinks he did anything wrong… DID he do anything wrong? Or is what he did alright because my body wasn’t saying “no”? I didn’t fight him physically. Do you think I was raped? I’m so confused and I’ve lost all my self-respect!

I can sure relate to this scene. I could have been him in college. There’s a lot wrong with this situation for sure but what to do? Do you accept that she may be effected her whole life by this? I’d say it’s clearly rape, but I cringe at putting him in prison. How big a deal is this sort of thing? Who’s responsible? What should men and women be doing in terms of the culture that leads to this? With what sense of urgency?

I don’t really get the whole part about democracy?
….
A woman saying that she was raped and the man saying that it was consensual, without any witnesses and without any physical marks on her body, cannot lead to a conviction IMO.

Sure it can. Tally the votes. He’s guilty. That’s democratic. It’s a jury of your peers. Not you. Get it?

“…change the principle of beyond reasonable doubt”.

You use the words “fair” and “insane”. These concepts are fairly irrelevant in court. But not generally to the making of laws of course. You don’t simply stand up in court and say, “Your honor, it is the defense’s contention that the charges against the defendent are fundamentally unfair and insane. The defense rests.”
That would get you nowhere. You must use legal reasoning. Cite laws and evidence, how they apply, why other laws and definitions don’t apply, precidence, etc. That’s the legal system.

“I say, if you don’t like the risk, stay out of the situation. Nobody’s forcing you.”

Are you serious? Men should stop having sex because the legal system has become unreasonable?

Yes. I’m serious.

Not “men should” but every man decide himself. You say unreasonable, but a lot of women apparently think it IS reasonable. It’s not about everyone agreeing, remember?

I think this is so funny…. Why are you upset? You seem to believe it’s your right to have sex with women on terms YOU find reasonable. What if she thinks it’s unreasonable?

No, I meant exactly what I wrote. Read it again.

Oh. Got it. A unreasonably believes that B consents. A knew B doesn’t consent or should have.

Women, about nobody says the legal system is going to end rape. You probably know all the statistics leading to very low charged and conviction rates. So that leaves changing the culture.

I’m not going to argue for having to accept the term “rape culture”. But the culture is what it is. And rape happens… well, “a lot”.

Rape is one of the earliest, biggest issues for feminists isn’t it? They (and I) say “we want you to help us change that culture toward much less rape”. Ok… what do men what from feminists?

Maybe it’s time to start negociating.