One of the most dangerous aspects of unhealthy feminism is its ability to create consensus around false facts through ad nauseum technigues. Its important that we dont let these statements go unchallenged, but to voice credible facts and explanations. That will break the spell. Most people, men and women alike, are sensible, if we give them the opportunity of a choice, they will choose the most credible one.

Just an example of how important it is for men to engage not only in personal development, but in the development of the equality-discourse in the public sphere.

As Jane says, men need to do their personal work. We can also add that women too need to do their personal work.

But then there’s the political/societal/structural dimension too, which is separate from the personal. The personal and political are *not* the same, as I wrote about in an earlier blog post. Therefore, men need to make their voices heard in the public gender discussion, it’s not enough to “do one’s own work”.

And what will happen when men do that? As you say, men will need to address the male gender role, just like feminism helped women address the female gender role. But men will have one more issue to face: dealing with unhealthy feminism and the guilt it has instilled in men and boys around the world.

We cannot bypass the political perspective and the public debate about gender, we simply cannot. In fact, being stoic men who only work harder in private without complaining at all in public will help cement the old fashioned male gender role.

Pelle

Jane believes that men should be doing the work, focusing on male-issues, breaking free from the harmful genderroll, and unhealthy feminism will have to make way/adapt etc.

While I agree with this, it is clear that Jane does not see how heavy feministic guilt hangs over the head of men. Its an unrightful guilt. It is as if feminism is trying to punish us into change. If you know men, you know this will never work. If the choice stands between accepting that guilt and transcend (into that unhealthy role of ever apologetic scapegoat cut out for us by feministic theory) or doing nothing, most men will choose to do nothing. And rightfully so.

Pelle coined the phrase “the third choice” in another thread.

The third choice is about breaking free from the male genderroll withouth accepting guilt. On our own terms. As it should be. To achieve this, I can see only two alternatives. Either we confront feminism and try to reform it to include men and the maleperspective in an objective way and with the same compassion as it has for women, thus disarming the unrightful guilt (replacing feminism with a genderliberation movement would be a good start), or we rid ourselves from its yoke and create our own sphere where we can define ourselves, not be defined by others with a questionable agenda. This includes a new language and new theories where we are allowed to be discussed in a 3-dimensional way, not just as a 2-dimensional stereotype mirror to women and the female genderroll.

Im all about the third choice.

But I don’t fully understand the problem when trying to summarize all of this in my head. A lot of opinions here seem to be pretty compatible if we learn to use the same language I believe.

On another note, the discussion about feminist theory and how it dominates academia (and therefore restricts/influences our way of thinking) is very important in my view. A lot of bad things going on here that most likely will hurt any true gender liberation movement. Most men who try on the feminist courses end up feeling like assholes, adopt the feminist ideology or do a 180 and become hypermasculine. This is a really really really big problem! I once tried to get a discussion going about this when I was in a class discussing gender issues, but it was an impossible struggle. The teacher and most of the women didn’t want to listen, they just had a reply ready to throw back at me. And most of the men didn’t know what to say, or maybe they didn’t care.

I don’t quite understand how Jane can “overlook” (I don’t know what to call it) this issue. If it is because you don’t think there’s anything at all wrong or harmfull about feminism, then I’m afraid you’re missing the important issues that Pelle, and others, have discussed on this blog. Or perhaps it is because you do recognize some problems, but don’t think that these discussions will help resolve matters. I’m not quite sure I understand your position. :-/ Just stating that if we do some work on ourselves, everything will be fine, is a bit naive. It’s bloody important, the most important I think, but we need to adress these other issues. Otherwise our efforts will be much less effective.

Don’t get me wrong here, we do need to start talking more about what a true gender liberation would mean. But I too believe that men are a bit behind (on these issues I mean and that this is an important step to take. I truly believe it’s healthy with some “feminist-bashing” (if it’s relevant, has good points and has some truth to it) just so we can make some sort of a fresh start! That’s MY experience and MY opinion from inside academia and I hope we all share our perspectives in an open and heartfelt way.

Anyways, thanks for this discussion! Rock on!

I agree that you are not the opposition, I see now that I was unclear when writing “opposing perspectives”. You are indeed seeking the emergent truth about what is going on in the field of gender - as am I - and within that emergent field we hold both similar and different perspectives. That is what makes this discussion interesting and much needed.

Pelle

I value opposing perspectives greatly, so when you feel motivated again, you are very welcome back to the discussion

Pelle

There is a difference between feminism and women. In this blog I often refer to how feminism is incomplete, and sometimes unhealthy. This does not mean that I’m attacking women in any way. I’m simply pointing out how a set of beliefs are inadequate, and need to be “upgraded”. There are both women and men who are feminists, so even if we think about the people behind the ideas, we find both sexes.

So far in this blog, I haven’t focused on the personal work we can need to do to transcend your gender roles, or at the very least evolve our gender roles. I will very likely address that later on, but since I find the societal and political dimension so interesting and pivotal at this point in time, I’ve chosen to start with that sort of discussion first. Furthermore, my own gift is one of analyzing complex interconnections in a system, so that is why I focus on that kind of work.

However, in no way does my writing contradict the fact that I’m doing a lot of personal work too. But this is not a blog about me, it is more a blog about ideas.

I believe that men are 100 percent responsible for transforming the male gender role, just like women are 100 percent responsible for theirs. However, since feminism - the only strong voice in the gender debate - paints a very unfair picture of men and the male gender role, feminism *needs* to be addressed. There’s no way around it, since gender issues = feminism, in most people’s minds.

Regarding my own vision for the future, I’ve already begun to touch upon it in some blog posts, and I will keep on expounding on that subject. Briefly, my vision is about educating people about my key premises:
1. Gender roles evolved as a functional fit to historical circumstances
2. Both sexes need to be liberated from their gender roles
3. Feminism needs to be replaced by a neutral Gender Liberation Movement

Furthermore, as you point out, a shitload of personal work will be needed to make all of this happen. However, I’m only one person, and it’s up to each individual and the skilled therapists of the world to change humankind one person at a time…
I offer my own ideas, and hopefully some or many people will find them useful, interesting or even valuable.

Pelle

I am always interested in trying to push the boundaries of this discussion, to see whether it is possible to take it to a new working level. So far I have not had much success…. I am not as convinced as I once was that this is important…. I do know that I have a great deal of compassion for men especially those quagmired in their gender roles, and I have a great deal of gratitude for the men who have transcended them. I am also very protective of my sisters, and proud of the struggles we have overcome, and sad for the constrictions we still face in so many places on the planet.

Old modes of being fall away as better modes replace them…..

I am glad you are all doing your work so diligently and passionately…and I wish you godspeed. Maybe on the next go round we will come to listen to each other more clearly and understand with more depth and wisdom.

I am going to sign off now, as it seems that I am fanning the flames of polarity and this is not my intention.
All the best.
Jane