This lack of consistency can indeed be frustrating. I think what would help is if the whole notion of gender equality stopped being equated to gender sameness. If we accept that men and women are different in some ways, then it’s easier to accept some differences in the dating game too. However, if we accept that women have some perks simply because they are women, then we will need to accept that men have perks simply because they are men…

I think many men make the pragmatic choice of not buying anything more than a cup of coffee on dates, until they are in a relationship, where they can discuss how to split the check or not.

I can also very heavily relate to the anger that was described early in the text. I started out as a very, very nice guy that was a little angel and always helpful to the point of naive. I still am, but over time a seething anger has grown due to the constant barrage of collective guilt from all around me. Very often I want to scream at the top of my lungs - Dont blame me! I never did that! I am a NICE guy! - but who would listen, who would care? And what happens with anger that finds no outlet? It turns to bitterness… And spite.

Finally I want to bring up a point that hasnt been made here yet. To make it I will use the example about who pays for the first date, but it applies to alot of situations. As you described, a man that doesnt pay for the first date is not only certain he will not get a second date, but he is also considered rude enough that the surroundings often react and interfere. And this often happens after a successful first date where the subject of a possible coming relationship on equal terms has been discussed in a friendly and agreeing way. This creates an enormous frustration inside me. I desperatly want to be equal in my relationship (not because I am expected to, but because I am for equality between genders, races, classes and so on) but I am not allowed to be equal. I am supposed to fill my genderrole! This creates a conflict in me. The problem is that the internal conflict cannot be solved since the society does not allow me to vent my frustration. If I do vent it, I automatically fail at the dating game. So I have to control and push down my own needs and wants and values if I want to play the dating game. Which in turn means that the roles are uneven, unequal. I play the game on her terms. Why has the society evolved to a point where I am not allowed to date on my terms, values and beliefs and she on hers?

I want to find an equal relation for life, but I cant find an equal girl.

However, there is also the small matter of thousands of mens’ experience around the world. Nowadays there are various forums where men discuss these things, and nearly every man can tell the same story: before, he was pursuing women and having very little success, but after changing his manner and becoming slightly evil (a “bad boy), he is now having great success with women.

Dark triad men get more women => Women are biologically more attracted to jerks.

But there are potentially many other reasons why these men get more women. They may just pursue more women on average, they may have less barriers (nervosity, shyness, etc), they may be more aggressive (not assume rejection as quickly)…

In fact, the article itself states:

“The study found that those who scored higher on the dark triad personality traits tended to have more partners and more desire for short-term relationships”

Ah, so they have a higher desire for short-term relationships - so perhaps they pursue more women (please note I’m not saying they do, since I haven’t PROVEN anything!) Why would men with a lower desire for short-term relationships pursue multiple partners?

So, to conclude, it takes much more to prove the causality that the reason “jerks” get more women is that women are biologically attracted to jerks.

And I can think of all kinds of examples in lingusitics where there are all sorts of close parallels in completely unrelated languages, in grammar ot structure of the vocabulary or whatever, that no one can claim are biological because after all, there are complwetely opposite and contradictory structures in an equal number of other unrelated languages.

What you are saying is that those structures are *not* cross-cultural (i.e. present in all human societies), and then no, we shouldn’t assume that they are biological.

A big part of being human is in not being biologically determined. How else does a savannah-adapted, subtropical primate species come to live in a place llike….oh….Northern Europe?

I agree. But “a big part” is not the same as “the whole part”. While environmental adaptation and cultural programming are very important, there are also behaviors that are influenced by biology. It doesn’t need to be an either/or thing, it can be a both/and thing.

Well at least this part is mostly wasted on most women. I see women take about an equal number of boys as girls to work on those days on the train I ride.

OK, somehwere somone did a study - this was years ago - that involved a bunch of women and a bunch of their brothers. Every evening they collected the brother’s undershirts, and every morning the womenwere asked (I hope) to sniff a selection undershirts and rate them on a scale of undesirability. The issue was histocompatiabilty and genetic distance. Surprise, surprise; they found that at one point in ther cycle, when they were most fertile, the women preferred the scent of men who were gentically most distant, and their brothers’ scent icked them out. The rest of the time the response was reversed.

So that may make some kind of sense. But how does it apply? Maybe a man who breaks cultural norms is going to register subconsciously as more foreign. “Jerks” might have this affect. The same is probably true for the way that guys go for “wild women”. Maybe.

It still sounds to me like a lot of ananlysis/speculation based on a few facts.

AMEN. When a phenomenon is cross-cultural, it may have a biological basis. But there’s no way to prove that. And I can think of all kinds of examples in lingusitics where there are all sorts of close parallels in completely unrelated languages, in grammar ot structure of the vocabulary or whatever, that no one can claim are biological because after all, there are complwetely opposite and contradictory structures in an equal number of other unrelated languages.

A big part of being human is in not being biologically determined. How else does a savannah-adapted, subtropical primate species come to live in a place llike….oh….Northern Europe? Western Europe, for that matter - there isn’t that much of it that’s truly habitable. Of course there are physical adaptations, like the loss of pigment and the development of lactase persistence, but let’s be real - a lot more of the credit is owed to things like houses and food storage and clothing - cultural, not biological adaptations.

Hear hear. The Dating game is so loaded with double standards and unfairness that I don’t blame anyone for not wanting to get involved (myself included). Men having to act a certain way to attract a woman, women acting a certain way to attract a man, (and it can get even tricker once you go into other sexual orientations).