I think you make many important and valid points, both about PUAs and my ambivalence towards them. However, I’m not sure about this claim -

‘It is a sidetrack, as all PUAs eventually seem to figure out that it was never about women in the first place.’

I think the claim for ‘all’, even ‘most’ would be a bold claim, seen as we seem to both be in agreement that most of what classes as the PUA movement is a regression. Its difficult to quantify, but no doubt some PUAs do develop greater insight into themselves and sexual dynamics by engaging with such a paradigm. I wonder if men such as George Sodini could have benefitted from what you feel PUAs can offer -

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/05/george-sodini-alleged-la-_n_251972.html

I think you’re right that -

‘For many, I think the PUA-movement can serve as a reconnecting, call it a temporary regression that facilitates real evolution. Evolution sometimes requires temporary devolution for the purpose of horizontal integration.’

This certainly seems to be the case for a great deal of sexually frustrated men out there who lack a strong authentic masculine identity and healthy self-esteem. I think George Sodini did seem to have been a ‘modern flow-boy’ and he probably had some of those psycho-dynamic Freudian issues you highlighted.

It is a difficult area. You’re probably right in that it does represent a necessary regression in some instances, but rather than returning to ‘lower’ aspects of our Being in the pursuit of healing and re-integration, some of the preditory practices they espouse could lead to perminant regression, or even prevent men at the more ego-centric waves of development from progressing further by becoming arrested at that stage.

I’d be very interested to see what yourself and others think of cases such as George Sodini.

The reason why I asked whether you thought the PUA movement was all bad is that I don’t. You still seem a bit undecided.

Now, let me explain why I think there are good things about it. First, it is an expression of a natural unfolding of men’s search for authenticity. It is a sidetrack, as all PUAs eventually seem to figure out that it was never about women in the first place.

The PUA movement is an expresison of a principle I believe to hold true - that a man who doesn’t get his relations with women in order will never be successful in life. Women are the endless distraction that makes even the most successful businessman feel like a failure if he doesn’t have it handled. Not being able to create attraction with women, not being able to have strong relations with them, is bound to create lots of problems for the guy.

Now, perhaps it’s true that the PUA movement is a regression. At least large parts of it seems to approve of lies and deceit as a way of getting what you want. You can say that women have always played that game, but it’s not an accurate assertion. Women operate differently to men, and what may seem as lying to a guy is just a reflection of the woman’s shifting moods and emotions. The man who is not true to his word, however, is not a man at all. So when the PUA artists lie to get women, they are cutting off their dick to sleep with mommy. It’s….eww….pretty disgusting when you think about it.

But there’s also the need here to connect with our balls. And there’s a sort of unapologetic, primal quality that the PUA-movement tries to tap into, which is much needed for modern flow-boys. I know from my own experience that in the process of growing my masculinity and my natural authority, sometimes I have messed up and come off as a bit of a jerk. But it’s been good for me.

Many modern men are rushed into the white knight role by a society that doesn’t approve of male aggression, the “red knight”. So they have no connection with their balls, no natural authority. For many, I think the PUA-movement can serve as a reconnecting, call it a temporary regression that facilitates real evolution. Evolution sometimes requires temporary devolution for the purpose of horizontal integration.

The focus on brotherhood in the movement as well as the aspects I have just mentioned make me consider the PUA movement an important aspect in the cultural process we’re in.

Eivind,
http://www.masculinity-movies.com

The point I was trying to make, to echo a point you made earlier, was that, unlike many schools of Feminism, (who now should throw out ‘man’haters’ if they truely aspire to an ideal of gender liberation) those of us who are affiliated with progressive MRAs that want a genuine and authentic gender liberation for the benefit of humanity as a whole, will have to stand against the encroachment of those who adopt preditory practices such as many (possibly read ‘most’) in the PUA diaspora who make assertions about gender liberation.

They seem to make statements implying what you said - that men are learning better ways to manipulate women. Many PUAs would argue that is necessary to even the playing field as women have historically been better at it.

“The loudest denunciations of the PUA seem to take the form of wet-hen fury that men would presume to learn how to manipulate women in ways that women have historically prided themselves on using on men.”

I think that’s a shame and it is something that needs to change. This is just a binary escalation of a gender arms race. Tit for Tat, gaining an exploitative advantage ect. The loudest denunciations of the PUA need to come from men! Just as the loudest denunciations of man’hating Feminists need to come from women.

Yes. I recently heard someone characterize it as the male equivalent of “womanly wiles”.

“But the movement in general does seem to generate a certain amount of ‘man-hating’ and it doesn’t do our cause any favours. ”

That is like blaming rap for racism. The loudest denunciations of the PUA seem to take the form of wet-hen fury that men would presume to learn how to manipulate women in ways that women have historically prided themselves on using on men. That is man-hatred, and I doubt that it needed the existence of the PUA to come into being.

I apologise for the late reply. To be honest, I don’t know all that much about the PUA movement, but what I’ve seen seems to indicate (to me at least) more of a regression in sexual relations towards a more ego-centric self-gratifying attitude which I suppose is not as ‘evolved’ as those in present company
Most of it seems to be very preditory in nature and I think it is a cause for some concern. This is the foundation of the scandel David Deida was involved in recently when he was engaging with these kinds of movements. However, as it turns out, he seems to be trying to raise their consciousness via the ‘back-door’, so to speak.

But the movement in general does seem to generate a certain amount of ‘man-hating’ and it doesn’t do our cause any favours. Due to the largely ‘unevolved’ nature of our sexual relationships at present as a species, as MRAs are still a minority voice in the wilderness, the PUA movement seems to have a substantial following in comparison…

Men have more of a personal stake in finding a form of gender liberation that goes beyond feminism, therefore more men than women are attracted to my work. At this point in time, I think that would be hard to change.

However, I love the comments I get from women reading my blog. You often challenge me to look at things from a new perspective.

Point 2 above is still very much needed, so it’s part of my work, and obviously men are more interested in that part…

I’m glad my posts fire you up, I couldn’t ask for anything more.

@ Pelle and your female readers: I notice that not many women seem to be commenting on your blog… Possibly its title is more appealing to men than to all these women that are frozen in their feminist beliefs, but if we are aiming for integration and mutual understanding, I think increasing the number of female readers & commenters might be a good place to start ;-)! How could you make the ’soil’ of your ideas more fertile in their eyes?

@ Pelle: I must say I like the fierceness and unapologetic formulation of your posts in general. It really gets me going, even if I rarely have the words to express yet where I agree and disagree and why…

There’s a lot more to be said on the subject, but those two posts are pretty much dedicated to male disposability.

Speaking of waking up I’ve been trying to get my thoughts straight on the concept of male disposability. Have you by chance done a post on this yet (from what I can tell its come up in comments but never a dedicated post of its own)?