Where did feminism go wrong?

September 2nd, 2009 by Pelle Billing

This is a question I often ask myself. How could a movement that originally was fighting to attain the simple goal of civil and legal equality between the sexes, turn into a radical feminist movement that considers all men to be inherently oppressive or even evil?

Sure, there are still many feminists who still belong to “old school” feminism, and they are usually very sane people. The best example is perhaps Christina Hoff-Sommers who has written a couple of excellent books about radical feminism and its unfortunate consequences in the US.

Let’s have a look at the factors that I believe turned feminism into a mess:

  1. There was a lack of clarity from the start of the feminist movement. Was it a movement for gender equality, or was it a movement that promoted women’s rights? This is a huge distinction, and the assumption that these two struggles are always compatible is far from true.
  2. This lack of clarity is also apparent in the name chosen for the movement. If it had been called equalism, then the end goal would have been clear. However, the name feminism implies that the end goal is female supremacy or something along those lines.
  3. By creating a strong feminist movement, men’s issues are automatically defined as being non-existent or at the very least far smaller than female issues (which is something I dispute in my writings). Originally this was less of a problem, since feminism was focusing on equal rights in society, which was an honorable struggle and a process that needed to happen. However, once equal rights had been implemented, feminism still assumed that women were far worse off than men, and more in need of a strong feminist movement than ever–without stepping back and looking at the wider picture, a picture which included men’s perspectives.
  4. Men have been far too silent in the gender debate, a silence which has probably been interpreted as men feeling guilty, or at the very least having no good arguments to counter the increased radicalization of feminist theory. This has allowed radical feminists to get more and more government grants and influence, which in turn has given them more resources to come up with ever more radical theories that make men responsible for every conceivable evil. Gender study departments in universities around the world, can now hide behind the respectable façade of higher education and use tax payers’ money to promote the theories of radical feminism.
  5. Radical feminism absolves women from personal responsibility in their lives. It’s all the fault of the patriarchy, a mythical structure which means that men always get the good deal in life… This is a seductive stance for young women, especially if a university teacher that you respect tells you that this is how the world works. This means that equity feminism and other branches of old school feminism, that emphasize women’s personal responsibility in creating better lives for themselves, have a harder time gaining new adherents.

There are many more factors of course, but these are some of the key points in my opinion. Feel free to add your own points in the comments.

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38 Responses to “Where did feminism go wrong?”

  1. Patrick Brown Says:

    I have come to the conclusion that feminism is based on two biological impulses that both sexes share – the greater reproductive value of women, and the discounting of those members of the opposite sex who don’t come up to your standard of attractiveness.

    Because men can spread their seed but women can only reproduce once at a time, a community that loses a large number of males can repopulate itself much more easily than a community that loses a large number of females. So women are reproductively more valuable than men, and women’s wellbeing and safety is much more important than men’s and always has been (this can come at the expense of women’s freedom, which is what feminists object to). When a man has a problem, he is expected to take care of it himself or suffer in silence. When a woman has a problem, it’s everyone’s responsibility to put it right. Feminists have so exploited this that virtually everyone now agrees that a woman who feels uncomfortable at the way a man looks at her is oppressed and all of society must work to stop it happening, but a man who is conscripted to die in a foreign land for a cause that has nothing to do with him has nothing to complain about. Hillary Clinton even said, to virtually no mainstream disagreement, that the “primary victims” of his death are the women in his life who “lose” him.

    Both sexes, when choosing a mate, will size up members of the opposite sex and discount those who don’t meet their standards of attractiveness. Women often complain that, once they reach a certain age, they become invisible to men, because one of the strongest male standards of sexual attractiveness is youth. Women select their mates more on social status, and likewise men who are not socially dominant enough are invisible to them. Feminists have carried over their mate-choice criteria into their politics. When they consider the status of men, they only include those men who meet their attractiveness criteria, i.e. men of some status, and so to them, all men are powerful because they don’t count men who are not powerful, who would otherwise bring down the average, as men.

    Feminism, the assertion that society cares more about men than women, can only exist because, in fact, society cares more about women’s suffering than men’s.

  2. Chris Marshall Says:

    You remind me of this quote, which I have treasured for years:

    A sharper perspective on this matter is particularly important to feminist
    thought today, because a major tendency in feminism has constructed the
    problem of domination as a drama of female vulnerability victimized by male
    aggression. Even the more sophisticated feminist thinkers frequently shy
    away from the analysis of submission, for fear that in admitting woman’s
    participation in the relationship of domination, the onus of responsibility
    will appear to shift from men to women, and the moral victory from women to
    men. More generally, this has been a weakness of radical politics: to
    idealize the oppressed, as if their politics and culture were untouched by
    the system of domination, as if people did not participate in their own
    submission. To reduce domination to a simple relation of doer and done-to
    is to substitute moral outrage for analysis.
    — Jessica Benjamin, “The Bonds of Love”

  3. MER Says:

    Proceeding from the idea that women are more reproductively valuable, and that men are to an extent disposable, some brand of feminism makes sense. This is because economics and technology have changed the way that humans interact with the environment. Instead of a populations growth being limited by the number of wombs, it’s now more limited by the amount of surplus resources. There are essentially no clans or tribes; instead competing cultures and countries. And at that, population does not correlate with prosperity.
    Technology and societal has allowed women, being, on average physically weaker, to participate as meaningfully as men in the workforce without compromising population growth, increasing productivity. More productive cultures and countries are more dominant. Adopting freedom for both genders to participate as full members of a society is a logical adaption to new historical circumstances.
    With responsibilities come rights.
    Now, there are obviously biological holdovers. However, as sentient beings, we’ve already minimized a number of aspects that made sense pre-civilization: eating meals rather than constantly, for the most part we don’t nap, don’t wake up at dawn and sleep at dusk, we’ve shifted from physical to sedentary lives.
    I’m not saying that there’s some society-optimization hive mind, but on some level we don’t need it because we’re intelligent.

  4. Pelle Billing Says:

    Patrick:
    “Feminism, the assertion that society cares more about men than women, can only exist because, in fact, society cares more about women’s suffering than men’s.”

    This is profound.

  5. Pelle Billing Says:

    Chris,

    What that quote is getting at is that if men have indeed oppressed women for thousands of years, then women must be either stupid or weak or both. Which they aren’t of course… The answer is that men and women have taken on the roles that were needed in order to survive and thrive.

  6. Pelle Billing Says:

    MER,

    What your saying is interesting. Gender roles do adapt to shifting circumstances and as you say, nowadays the dominant cultures are the ones who can have their women participate in the workforce, not the cultures that keep women safe in the home.
    However, having a large population is still an advantage (look at China, Russia, the US…), so some of the old factors remain.

  7. Jim Says:

    “Men have been far too silent in the gender debate, a silence which has probably been interpreted as men feeling guilty,”

    And this proceeds from another fundamental failure of feminsm, the failure to identify and repudiate whatever preorogatives the patriarchy did accord women. Instead feminsim grabbed any weapon that was handy, and that often included many prerogatives: the prerogative of being the victim that needed protection (the Damsel in Distress), the prerogative of ordering homelife including relationships (If Momma Ain’t Happy, Ain’t Nobody happy), the maternal prerogative of disapproving of males (You Dirty Little Boy). In fact not only did feminists fail to renounce these, as time went on they grasped them ever more tightly, as well as latching onto to classically patrairchal sexaul stereotypes – woman as more nurturant, more peaceful, more blah blah blah.

    Check the discourse around domestic violence, pornography, political power economic power (Pay Gap), fatherhood and child custody, divorce, and other men’s issues, such as health and worksite injuires (the Garbage Gap) and circumcision. Check where these archetypes are active in the discourse.

    Ths failure to repudiate these prerogatives might seem self-defeating, but that depends on what feminsim’s real objectives were – certainly they are self-defeating if equality was the objective. i believe you can infer intent from actions. Apparently equality was never the real objective, or perhaps it has just stopped being the real objective.

  8. Jim Says:

    “Men have been far too silent in the gender debate, a silence which has probably been interpreted as men feeling guilty,”

    And this proceeds from another fundamental failure of feminsm, the failure to identify and repudiate whatever preorogatives the patriarchy did accord women. Instead feminsim grabbed any weapon that was handy, and that often included many prerogatives: the prerogative of being the victim that needed protection (the Damsel in Distress), the prerogative of ordering homelife including relationships (If Momma Ain’t Happy, Ain’t Nobody happy), the maternal prerogative of disapproving of males (You Dirty Little Boy). In fact not only did feminists fail to renounce these, as time went on they grasped them ever more tightly, as well as latching onto to classically patrairchal sexaul stereotypes – woman as more nurturant, more peaceful, more blah blah blah.

    Check the discourse around domestic violence, pornography, political power economic power (Pay Gap), fatherhood and child custody, divorce, and other men’s issues, such as health and worksite injuires (the Garbage Gap) and circumcision. Check where these archetypes are active in the discourse.

    Ths failure to repudiate these prerogatives might seem self-defeating, but that depends on what feminsim’s real objectives were – certainly they are self-defeating if equality was the objective. i believe you can infer intent from actions. Apparently equality was never the real objective, or perhaps it has just stopped being the real objective.
    OH! You’re my new favorite blogger fyi

  9. elementary_watson Says:

    “nowadays the dominant cultures are the ones who can have their women participate in the workforce, not the cultures that keep women safe in the home.”

    However, you will find that in poorer countries the ratio of women in courses for technical professions is higher than in richer countries. Despite some feminist claims (“girls are discouraged from studying technical professions”), not studying such fields is a luxury, no an oppression.

    Jim: I think the most widespread patriarchal stereotype embodied by women today is the “mummy as moral authority” stereotype; “stop contradicting mummy, you naughty boy” seems to be one of the most favourite counter-arguments towards men questioning a woman’s view. (I’ve also seen the work of the economic elite described as “boys playing around”, so women are needed to make sure that the outcomes of this playing is rather for the good than the bad – a call for matriarchal authority, once more.)

  10. Patrick Brown Says:

    Thank you, Pelle.

    Jim, I entirely agree with you. Feminism was never a campaign for equality. It’s really no more than the extension of traditional female attitudes from the micro-environment of the home and family into the macro-environment of politics and business: “protect me, provide for me and make me happy; stop that, it’s disgusting; you’re useless and you always let me down”. In the old days this strategy was used on an individual basis by abusive wives against their husbands. Now it’s used collectively by feminism, via popular culture, against men en masse.

  11. Danny Says:

    (I’ve also seen the work of the economic elite described as “boys playing around”, so women are needed to make sure that the outcomes of this playing is rather for the good than the bad – a call for matriarchal authority, once more.)
    This mentality is now coming to full light amid all these studies/articles/reports that try to argue that women are better managers than men in the business, especially financial, realm. A few men at the top screwing up the economy is apparently proof that the entire gender is inferior at financial management.

  12. elementary_watson Says:

    Danny: To be fair, I’ve seen feminists denouncing this attitude as rubbish. However, they still go on about the “male perspective” which is so one-sided unless there are more women in top positions, which continues to baffle me.

  13. Danny Says:

    True but I wonder are they denoucing it because such beliefs put the unfair expetation of assumed competence in the business realm on women (as in assuming that being a woman equals competence) and/or because they recognize it is unfair to judge the entire male gender based on the actions of a few greedy men at the top whose greed caused a lot of people a lot of pain. And I ask this because feminists seem to take a lot of pleasure in wash over the fact that most of the jobs that were lost were lost by men with the pay wage gap. Which BTW have you ever noticed that (whether they intend to or not) they seem to want to cast the illusion that the entire wage gap is caused by sexism?

    However, they still go on about the “male perspective” which is so one-sided unless there are more women in top positions, which continues to baffle me.
    I’m not sure I’m understanding you here.

  14. Gilesy Says:

    @Everyone

    Been enjoying all your posts, each person has had something decent to say. Topics been very stimulating.

    I’d like to throw 4 things out there and get your opinions

    1) “However, once equal rights had been implemented, feminism still assumed that women were far worse off than men”

    The battle for feminist equality at this stage has taken a turn to issues that are not top of the agenda or obvious from a Male perspective. This can be seen as ignoring Mens rights, but someone has to look at female-dominated issues, and who better than those with insider perspectives that we don’t get.

    A lot of feminist blog posts (http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/) focus on how the female body is used as a marketing tool, objectification, sex workers, slightly higher rates of attacks on under 16 females, & LGBT/ethic minority perspectives. These types of topics consistently come up on that site. The legal rights are usually the same across males and females, but entirely-legal social forces are still there making things uneven for everyone. Looking at these social forces and expectations are pretty much the main-stay of current UK feminism.

    @Pelle

    2)”The answer is that men and women have taken on the roles that were needed in order to survive and thrive.” This can co-habit with denying rights / exploitation such as voting / political power. For example, Current hardline Islamic culture and female rights – can they be justified using historical / situational rhetoric? Are these women ‘weak, stupid’? Are they persuaded to be complicit with this state of affairs by social forces? Or are they isolated and cut off from power that could ensure more equal rights? Or something else? In one way, ‘thriving and surviving’ in that culture is making sure NOT to challenge convention, probably similar to european history, and in doing so deny themselves rights.

    @Anyone

    3) The idea that feminism is ignoring Male-rights (I dispute, but lets assume its true) should we all rally against it? Are we not doing exactly what they’re doing to us? With male and female gender-roles filling gaps and playing off of each other, these things are inextricably bound up. Doesn’t a great understanding of female roles help us understand male roles, their influence and their context (as well as Vice Versa)?

    4)Some of the biggests critics of unequal rights in favour of any minority have been feminists, eg. Celia Kitzinger. This particular social constructionist writer argued that true social progression was not backlashing against something thats descriminatory (ie. pathologising homosexuals pre1970s to pathologising homophobics today) but moving away from the paradigm completely. This has clear implications for violence against women orders, hate crimes and longer male jail sentenses. The best thing I ever read about Male Bisexuality, was an article on Female Bisexuality – There are implications for much of feminist writings that go beyond their chosen topic.

  15. MER Says:

    “However, you will find that in poorer countries the ratio of women in courses for technical professions is higher than in richer countries.”
    That’s interesting, I didn’t know that.

    I think in the long run this trend will help these countries by reducing dead weight, as well as giving these families more resources and better education, which in turn will slow population growth.

  16. Danny Says:

    Gilesy:

    The idea that feminism is ignoring Male-rights (I dispute, but lets assume its true) should we all rally against it? Are we not doing exactly what they’re doing to us?

    That depends on how you define “ignoring”. If by that you mean that feminism does’t talk about Male-right because they are talking about other things then I’m fine with them “ignoring” them in that manner. That is just a simple matter of “we acknowledge that but we just aren’t talking about that right now”. If you mean that feminism only talks about male-rights the woman’s perspective (which I see alot) I can go along with it to a point but for the most part nothing wrong with that. If you mean that feminism just flatly pays not attention to male-rights issues (whether intentionally or not) then yes there is a problem because by doing that feminism expects men to become aware of issues that affect women at the cost of acting as if there are no issues that affect men. Examples if you will:

    1. Feminists are talking about rape victims and someone mentions the stigma of men hit with false allegations. Understandably it would make sense to inform said person that while that may be an issue that’s not the place to talk about it at that time. They recognize it and acknowledge it, but they are just not talking about it in that particular conversation.

    2. Feminists are talking about that line of “boys are stupid throw rocks at them” tshirts but rather than talk about how such things promote sexism and misandry they are talking about how such shirts promote the idea that it is okay for women to commit violence against men because of the sexist assumption that a woman can’t really hurt a man. On the surface I have no problem with that however…
    2a. Once the people on the conversation start going into things like claiming that while offensive to men its not really sexist or that the real problem with the shirts isn’t the idea that female against male violence is okay but the idea that women can’t really hurt men there is a problem. They erasing the main targets of the sexism shirts (males) and putting up females as the the true victims.
    2b. A litmus test for this would be to wonder if the shirts were of the “girls are stupid throw rocks at them” variety would those same people even consider the idea of saying that the shirts are offensive to males because it is giving them the false idea that it is okay to attack females much less claim that males are the real victims of such shirts. (I’ll bet a blank check they would not be able to say no to this without whining about privilege, know the idea that since some men are at the top living the privielged life then we all have access to that simply by sharing gender with them.)

    3. When feminists:
    A. Want men to be aware of victims of sexual assault while at the same time shouting down male victims.
    B. Don’t want to play Oppression Olympics (the game of claiming who has it worse) but won’t think twice calling a male victim privileged only because he is male but know nothing of his life.
    C. Flat statements like “men don’t…”, “men always….”, “men never…”

    So which is it?

  17. Harry Says:

    It seems to me that most of you guys have yet to raise your heads above the particular, and look more closely at the overall effects of feminism and the motivations behind governments’ strong support for it.

    For example, saying that this particular group of feminists (or that particular individual feminist) is concerned with men’s rights means precious little in the overall scheme of things.

    There were probably thousands of good Nazis too.

    Perhaps, instead of looking at what self-proclaimed feminists are saying, you should look more closely at what feminism is actually doing.

    Indeed, if you do look at what individual ‘feminists’ are saying, they are saying everything. You cannot pin down feminism just by picking up on what some feminist happens to be saying.

    Why not look at the results? – such as the prejudicial laws, the university hate campaigns orchestrated by campus feminists. And so on.

    I tell you what; take a look at this page on Harrys News …

    http://www.harrysnews.com/pgmenissues.htm

    … it’s fairly innocuous, isn’t it?

    But I had to conduct a strong campaign against Google to get the adverts back after they deemed it to be a page containing “inappropriate content”.

    I have also had my sites delisted from Google and have had to fight to get them back.

    You guys clearly have no idea just how censorious and intimidating are feminists.

    And people still lose their jobs and their career propects just for speaking out against feminist dogma.

    For example, fron CNS News …

    ……………..

    Nunavut’s premier has stripped the territory’s justice minister of his duties over a remark that suggests women are partly to blame when they are assaulted during domestic disputes.

    Eva Aariak said she has taken over the department from Louis Tapardjuk, who made the comment last week in an email.

    “Often, in cases of domestic disputes, both parties share the blame but, according to the Criminal Code, the person who gets physical is charged, even though the other party initiated the conflict,” Tapardjuk wrote.

    “Often, the male is charged even though the conflict may have been initiated by the female partner.”

    [So he was sacked and made to apologise.]

    Tapardjuk also suggested that the slow pace of the criminal justice system is responsible for many young people committing suicide when they face charges. He also said the involvement of social services and police in marital problems contributes to a growing number of divorces.

    ……..

    You guys seem to have no idea of just how impossible it has been to even criticise feminists in the mainstream media, in government, at college or in general.

    Take a look at this …

    http://www.angryharry.com/esFeministsarenastythings.htm

    … or this, written by a well-known domestic violence researcher …

    http://www.harrysnews.com/esConcealmentandDistortion.htm

    What about all the continual lies and distortions about rape and domestic violence – from the government and from the media?

    Feminism is a thoroughly foul ideology, and THOUSANDS of those who put feminism into practice are deceitful, dishonest, nasty and spiteful. And I can assure you that their agenda has nothing to do with ‘equality’.

  18. Gilesy Says:

    @Danny

    A lot of great points, the ‘boys are stupid throw rocks at them’ t-shirts and ignoring the misandry element is interesting, had a search for self-identified feminist postings on it – but couldn’t find; commentary must exist so maybe someone could post a link? I could find female commentators, but nothing that said they were feminists.

    A while back a Feminist friend of mine posted “gender stereotypes are stupid, throw rocks at them” and something along the lines of taking responsibility for childish ways of dealing with emotions. Which speaks to Pelles point of ‘old school feminism’

    I’ve heard a lot of ‘thats so a white, male, middle-class, heterosexist, western view’ as if that somehow invalidates any points (classic ad-hominems) from some feminist speakers. I guess they see it as the paradigm that doesn’t pay attention to alternative viewpoints or something. I find it quite telling, that each of those elements (white, male, heterosexual etc) are percieved as having the majority of power, so it becomes a legitimate target for criticism on those grounds alone. Its a similar way in jokes, any joke vs a minority is oppression, vs the majority ‘comes with the priviledge.’

    That particular attitude I find quite distasteful as it belittles serious problems and raises minority ideas above criticism (which no idea should be).

    Feminism is a collection of very different viewpoints, theres massive in-fighting about everything, which is why over many issues you get splits and people choose different feminist identies – saying that feminists always do something, can be very similar to “men don’t…”, “men always….”, “men never…” – neithers a good idea in my book.

  19. Danny Says:

    Gilsey:
    I find it quite telling, that each of those elements (white, male, heterosexual etc) are percieved as having the majority of power, so it becomes a legitimate target for criticism on those grounds alone. Its a similar way in jokes, any joke vs a minority is oppression, vs the majority ‘comes with the priviledge.’

    While at the same time critiquing a minority is an act of oppression or something. Maybe that is why some feminists go nuts over the Feminist Critics site, some assumption of gender based superiorty (women are oppressed therefore they cannot be wrong)?

  20. Danny Says:

    Gilesy:
    A lot of great points, the ‘boys are stupid throw rocks at them’ t-shirts and ignoring the misandry element is interesting, had a search for self-identified feminist postings on it – but couldn’t find; commentary must exist so maybe someone could post a link? I could find female commentators, but nothing that said they were feminists.

    http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/08/19/teaching-kids-that-there-is-a-battle-of-the-sexes/comment-page-1/#comment-101861

    Check that out.

  21. Harry Says:

    Well, here is my take on the Boys Are Stupid t shirts…

    http://www.angryharry.com/esBoysAreStupid.htm

    But what I want to get across to all of you is this.

    I probably come across as a “green ink nutter”; making wildly exaggerated claims.

    But I can assure you that my claims are not wildly exaggerated at all.

    I started out as an ‘activist’ basically just wanting to have a good moan about feminism – many aspects of which just irritated me. As the years went by, however, and I began to see more clearly what was going on, I learned just how massive was the dishonesty and the corruption when it came to those (in officialdom, academia and the media) who advocated feminism – with, for example, feminist editors of major women ‘s magazines actually COLLUDING together with the SPECIFIC INTENTION of stirring up hatred towards men.

    Also, I have a PhD in Psychology – and I used to teach Statistics to postgrads – and so when I ventured into looking at various ‘research papers’ on various feminist issues – such as sex-assault and domestic violence – I could understand them.

    And I looked at many of them CLOSELY.

    And I can tell you that they are mostly rubbish – politically-corrected rubbish – nearly always twisted in order to demonise and disadvantage men – with definitions fudged, data misrepresented, or absent, or just plain ridiculous.

    Furthermore, I have seen highly-respected top-ranking judges lying through their teeth in order to support the feminist agenda e.g. see …

    http://www.angryharry.com/esjudges.htm

    And what you guys need to wake up to is that those who rise high in the feminist ranks are, usually, the most devious, dishonest, self-serving, malicious fraudsters that you can imagine.

    They will say anything, and do anything, that they can get away with in order to bolster the feminist causse and, hence, profit themselves in some way.

    And because their agenda is consistent with the New World Order – or, if you prefer, powerful governmental control – these feminists have been promoted worldwide with BILLIONS of tax dollars; e.g. see …

    http://www.angryharry.com/esWhyGovernmentsLoveFeminism.htm

    Furthermore, they know how the game is played.

    Support feminism, and you will rise high.

    Oppose feminism, and your future will be scuppered.

    And so what we have ended up with over the years is a situation wherein those who are prepared to cheat, to lie, etc etc in order to pursue their careers by supporting feminism have reached the top of their trees.

    They are now in charge.

    Let me give you just one more example.

    I sometimes watch Newsnight on the BBC, and over the past few years I have written to them on occasion to complain about bias in their reporting.

    For example, I complained – politely – and under a different name – about the fact that they had aired two long pieces concerning female suicides in UK prisons over the past year; even though five times as many MEN commit suicides in prisons.

    No reply.

    And I have also poilitely complained about other things concerning bias against men.

    No reply.

    At the last election, the Newsnight presenter read out 7 emails that they had received from the public concerning some issue or other, and I noticed that they ALL came from men.

    So I wrote to Newsnight, and asked them why they had not aired the emails of any women.

    Guess what?

    I got a long apology, and was told that this would not happen again.

    I repeat; you guys have no idea of just how entrenched is the notion that feminism must be pursued at all costs, nor any idea of just how corrupt, dishonest and self-serving are those – at the top – who promote it.

    Finally, anyone who thinks that feminist-inspired policies are to do with fairness, justice and equality, should look at what happens to men who are merely accused of some kind of assault against a woman.

    Things are gradually getting better; but this is only because of the internet and, quite frankly, because of MRA activism via the internet.

  22. Gilesy Says:

    @Danny

    “While at the same time critiquing a minority is an act of oppression or something.”
    Theres a lot of critiquing going on within feminism, between feminists, but its a lot easier for them to talk about emotional issues like rape, cultural attitudes to rape, personal experiences with rape etc when no outside force is making them justify every step – why they think you were raped, did you lead it on, were you ambiguous, are you lying for a court payout/sympathy. Or questions irrelevant to personal accounts – prevalence of it, what about false-male convictions etc

    They can tackle those questions if they want in their own time. Those are obviously harsh questions pushed into the safest space for them to talk about emotional issues. The Assumption has to be ‘shes telling the truth’ etc to create that safe environment, unfortunately that lack of critiquing, while empathetic & needed may colour some perceptions of other men unjustly, ie. ‘if one thinks thats ok from cultural attitudes, why not the next person.’ Hearing accounts of rape are obviously horrid, and it has an effect of making you extra-wary, same way media mass-panic paedo-hysteria hit the UK, emotive stories & no-one let their kids out, despite no increase in abductions.

    I think there can be mis-communication (either deliberate or accidental) over issues like rape, when talking about statistics, people can feel like you’re undercutting personal accounts, or saying its not legitimate.

    “some assumption of gender based superiorty?”
    Theres an element, but I think its more like regular anger, if you want to change so much, and don’t have enough power, people taking that away from you or dismissing your opinion can be extremely frustrating, especially if they are made to justify everything over and over. The ‘superiority’ comes in with insider perspectives, they live the life of a woman, experiencing stuff we just don’t, explaining the whole world of being a woman is too much for any conversation, at least with other women they share many common experiences. Imagine justifying male disposability, having no say in whether your partner aborts your child or not, the damage a throw-away slander of rape can do and them just not getting it. Once again, its the same for both sides.

    Its kinda circular for everyone – “they’d only undercut my perspective if they didn’t understand what we face”

  23. Gilesy Says:

    @Danny – thanks for this link :) Some really good points on there

    at this link – http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/08/19/teaching-kids-that-there-is-a-battle-of-the-sexes/comment-page-1/#comment-101861

    RE: “boys are stupid throw rocks at them” t-shirts
    “True that the shirts were started up by men but they would not do too well if the women they were marketing to weren’t responsive.”

    Its a point I make to feminists all the time about living in a capitalist democracy, feminists don’t speak for everyone cos there are many women who actively enjoy gender-stereotypes – God knows I lived with one.

  24. Patrick Brown Says:

    I think the idea that “The idea that feminism is ignoring Male-rights” (Gilesy) is a misguided criticism of feminism. If we demand that feminists pay due attention to men’s issues, we are accepting their authority to speak for us on gender issues – allowing women, as Jim says “the maternal prerogative of disapproving of males”. Instead, we should be asking why, when it comes to discussion of gender issues, the media and society in general think feminism is the last and only word on the subject.

    Feminists are not our mothers, and we do not need to seek their approval or ask them to act on our behalf. They are our equals, and we need to establish the ability to argue with and against them as equals, not as suppliants.

  25. elementary_watson Says:

    Danny: About the point you were not sure you understood:

    Many feminists assume that the perspective of the elite is one-sided unless there are more women up there, because without women, the only perspective is the “male perspective”.

    What baffles me is: How can you (correctly) denounce the notion that women managers would act completely different from the way male managers do, and yet embrace the idea of one “male perspective” and one “female perspective”?

  26. Pelle Billing Says:

    “Feminists are not our mothers, and we do not need to seek their approval or ask them to act on our behalf. They are our equals, and we need to establish the ability to argue with and against them as equals, not as suppliants.”

    Spot-on again, Patrick.

  27. Pelle Billing Says:

    Gilesy:
    “Current hardline Islamic culture and female rights – can they be justified using historical / situational rhetoric? Are these women ‘weak, stupid’? Are they persuaded to be complicit with this state of affairs by social forces? Or are they isolated and cut off from power that could ensure more equal rights? Or something else?”

    Traditional islamic culture has pros and cons for both sexes. The question is not really whether a traditional culture can be justified or not, it’s more of a question of traditional gender roles arising because they make sense at a certain stage of techno-economic development.

    The women are neither weak nor stupid. Just like the men, they are accepting the role that society needs them to play, a role which will maximize their own chance of surviving and passing on their genes.

  28. Danny Says:

    EW:

    Many feminists assume that the perspective of the elite is one-sided unless there are more women up there, because without women, the only perspective is the “male perspective”.

    Actually with the way some act its “the male perspective” and rather than the “male perspective” difference being that the former implies that those few elite joes at the top somehow represent the entire gender (again implying that due to sharing gender with them all men somehow have access to the top).

  29. Jim Says:

    “The battle for feminist equality at this stage has taken a turn to issues that are not top of the agenda or obvious from a Male perspective. This can be seen as ignoring Mens rights, ”

    Gilesy, as others have pointed out, this is not an accurate characterization of the criticism.

    One aspect of the criticism is that feminism dishonestly labels issues as women’s issues, and arrogates to itslef the perogative of pronouncing on those issues, which are just as men’s issues as women’s issues. Rape is obviously one of these, and so is abortion, other aspects of parenting, and many more.

    The disingenuous claim that feminism is the cure to gender role issues and thus serves men’s interests is not the issue here. The bottom line is that feminists have shown time after tiem after time that they are inimical to men’s interests. It would be wonderful if they would ignore men and men’s issues.

    They just need to but out of discussions in circumcision – it’s our dicks, not theirs – and rape – when they start getting lynched and sent to prison for false rape accusations they will begin to have something to say – and abortion – it’s about children, not their stank bodies – and fatherhood – they haven’t a CLUE – we would be satisified with their inviolvement in the debate.

  30. Stu Says:

    Well, I”m not a very educated person, but you don’t have to be to know that feminism is about women gaining supremacy and control by basically crying victim and demonising men. It’s the only hate speech that is institutionalized and gets billions in government money.

    I’ve been a victim of feminism most of my life, from when my dad was kicked out when I was five, to when he was forced to take responsibility financially for my sister who is not his, to when my stepfather was booted later on, and all along as my sister was treated as princess while myself and brother were treated as less then.

    Then came my marriages. Every women I’ve lived with has either hit me, or thrown things at me. I’ve never done a physical thing against any women in my life but all I hear about is the voilence against women, which now even included so called financial voilence, which is so loosely and broadly defined that the mere act of limiting to any degree your wife’s access to your money or credit cards is financial abuse…..the act steal contains many references to a women’s right to financial independence though. So how can a man have financial independence………it’s actually impossible if he lives with a women…..because you’re no longer entitled to have any control of your own money…and that is the legal position……..it’s the law here in OZ. So now I can be thrown out of my house because I don’t give her a credit card with unlimited limit…….and don’t ask what she spent it all on either….that is financial abuse……just get that god damned limit increased whenever she max it out………..cause limiting her is financial abuse. Financial independence is something you obtain by earning your own money…….qualifying for your own credit cards……and “SAVING”………..not spending other peoples money with no responsibility………….no matter……….women make the law based on what they emotionally want the situation to be……not reality………..moral considerations.

    My experience of feminism is that it has proved that their should have been total rejection of women’s right to vote. What future can society have when half the population votes on selfish……emotional reasons…..ignores reality………..and a good deal of the other half go along with them in the hope that they might get a blow job or two before civilisation collapses.

    Reality………women were made to nurture children………..men were made to look after women so they can do that……….since men are providing the means for womens and childrens lives to be possible……..they get to run things…………thats how it should be. Do any of you women think your not totally dependant on men………..think your independant……..really…….where do all the metals come from for everything you have made of any kind of metal…..where do the buildings come from that you live in…….work in……etc…….how would you go anywhere without the roads…….footpaths……plains………..trains. Think you provide your family with food do you………..did you grow it…….transport it…..did you raise those animals……….where do you think the electricity and gas and fuel comes from……..men invented and discovered everything……and continue to do so………every life on this planet is totally dependent on the work of men to sustain it……..and we can do our work without womens presence and without any service provided by you……you can’t do anything without us…….because you wouldn’t even have pencils and paper to write you stupid man hating theories down without men providing them for you……….the only thing you can do that men can’t do…….is have babies…….thats it girls………..you are nothing but a way for men to make more men……….thats all you are……….you are nothing else………and never have been anything else…….and never will be anything else. You will always be totally dependent on men providing you with every essential for life…….you can not escape that fact…………and for the last 50 years…….you have been doing a lot of biting the hand that feeds you…….I suspect your going to find a lot less hands willing to feed you for that……..eventually none.

  31. Hey, Look! There’s a Big, Disgusting Bias on My Dick! (Part 2) | Filipino Freethinkers Says:

    [...] its proliferation really does promote gender equality. As Pelle Billing writes in his article, “Where Did Feminism Go Wrong?”: “There was a lack of clarity from the start of the feminist movement. Was it a movement for [...]

  32. A Female Perspective Says:

    I’d like to point out, right off the bat that every single comment that I have read on this forum has been posted by male screen names. Which leads me to believe that all of you are male.

    Over only the past few months have I begun to call myself a feminist. I do not run around blaming every man I meet for how I feel my gender has been wronged.

    I do however believe that our society still largely portrays women through the media as sex objects, or as things to be claimed, conquered, or owned. And it is a fact that the media throughout history has been portrayed mainly through male directors, or other male perspectives. The larger percentage (even today) of people running the media are indeed male. And men view women differently than women view themselves. Testosterone has a large part in this difference of views, but a simple chemical cannot account for the extreme portrayals that have surfaced and formed the ideas we see daily of what a woman “should be”.

    Think about why so many women take diet pills, get plastic surgery, are so fucking obsessed with their appearances? It’s to appeal to these perspectives.

    Even if not directly to impress one specific person, women make these choices consciously, or unconsciously in order to appeal to the male population, or the male image of what beauty is. Which horrifyingly enough has become what many woman also define beauty as due to repeated exposure. Actually, forget gender entirely. We are ALL exposed to this image of unnatural beauty constantly. And we should all be upset about it. Not just women.

    The reason women are usually so angry about it is that we feel we have been tricked. But men should feel this way too. You will never find a woman who is everything the media designed you to believe you deserve. They simply don’t exist. But so many women have been exposed to these images from such an early age, that by the time they realize they can’t attain these things they are furious. And then they begin to ask, “Who was I trying to attain this for?” and “Who made me believe I should be trying to attain this?”

    This is probably where a lot of hatred for men comes from, and why many men feel so attacked when they hear the word feminism.

    The concern with female body image spawned from the hypodermic needle we call the media, which injects us all daily. Unless you’ve lived in the woods your entire life without ever seeing a magazine, a movie, a commercial, or photograph the media is inescapable. As is it’s impact on all who view it.

    Why does this happen? Well, think about who mainly runs and produces these images?

    Sure, women are more involved in the production and distribution of media than they were even 20 years ago. But our numbers are still greatly outweighed by men. The people in charge of media dictate what the ideal man and woman SHOULD be. And if you aren’t this, here is how you can become desirable. And here is where the products sell.

    Even average commercials are usually pretty sexist towards both genders if you take the time to think about it. Women are usually the ones using cleaning products, and taking care of everyone else in the family. Men are the ones grilling, while women hand out lemonade to the house guests.

    Children’s toys commercials are also pretty bad. In all the babydoll commercials I have ever seen, never have I seen a little boy playing with the dolls. Either on their own, or with the girl who the doll is clearly geared towards. The message is that this toy is for little girls to play with, and on a sicker level, that parenting is solely a job for females. Little boy commercials on the other hand have more agressive music, harsher colors, and usually some type of toy that involves or surrounds more violent themes. This targets boys, because boys are biologically more inclined to enact violence than girls. Especially during adolescents and childhood.

    For all those who think feminism is a “bad word” with bad connotations, you have been mislead. I understand that a few bad apples can ruin the bunch. But feminism is not exclusive to women, men can be feminists too. I feel that instead of the notion that feminism is about women playing victim and pointing fingers at men, deeming them the fault of everything unjust to women, it is about something far different.

    Feminism is the act of aiming for a world where women define themselves, and how we are portrayed in society, instead of being defined by men, for the pleasure of men, and portrayed as such by the patriarchal society around us.

    You think this isn’t true? Look around you. The popular films you go see, how many times has the male hero been rewarded at the end with a female? How many times did you KNOW before the movie was even over that this would happen? The male hero completes his goal, and is rewarded with a woman. Or woman are portrayed throughout cinema as nothing more than companions to men, and not as women apart. There are obviously examples that do not fall into this category. But I guarantee you that these films tend to have more women writing staff, or directors. Not always, but often.

    Even the most widely believed texts convey us this way. Eve, for example was made FOR adam to be little more than a companion, and a way to procreate. And this is the image of women portrayed so often in the media today.

    Feminism isn’t about female or male superiority. It’s about living in a world where men and women are both featured in cleaning advertisements. Where boys never question if pink can be their favorite color. Where woman aren’t desperate to be thin, large busted, hairless goddesses in attempts to be what the image of beauty says we should be in order to please a largely male audience.

    Feminism is about having our own say in what a woman is, instead of feeling pressured to conform to the gender-roles imposed upon us which spin lies about what a woman should be. It’s about true equality, where there are no other roles in life, other than those chosen, and those earned.

    This said, you can’t be a woman and not be a feminist without hating yourself. And honestly, I don’t see how you could call yourself a man and be okay with how your daughter will one day be subjected to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zKfF40jeCA

    Here is an article written by a male author about this subject:
    http://www.cracked.com/article_19785_5-ways-modern-men-are-trained-to-hate-women.html?fb_ref=like&fb_source=home_oneline

    Yours truly,
    A feminist.

  33. Another point Says:

    I’ve been rereading a lot of the posts prior to the one above.

    Many of these posts complain about the unfairness cast upon men due to feminist’s cruelty of men. While I understand that you all have experienced things to validate your feelings on this matter, I cant help but feel a little angered by how these feelings of unjust have seemingly blinded you from the consequences women face every day due to acts of violent male supremacy. And by violent acts of male supremacy, I mean specifically the scarily common sexual acts of violence. Because really, it is either about degrading the woman, or controlling her.

    Following the post above, i’d like to go a bit further and testify that as someone who attends an all women’s college, and has over the past year been raped. I have since then noticed the horrific quantity of my fellow school mates who have also undergone this same degrading, undeniably horrid experience at least once.

    Studies have been collecting an increasing amount of data over the years on how much impact the media has on us, wether or not we are actively aware.

    I’m not trying to say every man who witnesses the following themes will act on them in such ways, but I’m developing a theory based on biological and environmental components.

    Men are naturally inclined to think about sex when confronted with sexually appealing women. It’s biological. It’s not a crime either.

    However, because women have not been able to successfully create an image for themselves, and for what they wish stand for, we have been left vulnerable to the perceptions of man value us to be.
    I have seen quite a few movies, both for cinematic and pornographic purposes which feature women being raped, who start out crying for help, and by the end of the scene are crying out in pleasure.

    These are complete delusions, which glorify both the act of violence, and dilute the severity of the impact that this act has on women. And even if they are understood fantasies by most men, or even most rapists, they still have an impact on those who view it, and play a part in the acceptance of this way too common, completely immoral act.
    And it makes sense that males are more likely to perform this act than women. It is, after all a fantasy geared towards men, which generally objectifies woman as creatures to be dominated and conquered.

    If you couple this with biological components: Men also have higher levels of testosterone than women which is directly linked to a significant lowering of the ability to empathize with someone else, and the ability to process long term consequences of one’s actions.

    And the combination of repeated exposure to (generally) male targeted acts of violence in the media from a young age. Then couple that with women being portrayed as sex objects constantly throughout the evolution of media… To me this all sounds connected. And like it could play a part in the 1 in 4 statistic of (only the reported) sexual abuse and rape inflicted on women.

    And let me just say, going to the school that I attend, with a close knit group of females, I have learned that it is much higher than 1 in 4 women who experience these life shattering events. Some of whom came here prior to experiencing these things.

    I’m not trying to impose guilt, or anger on any male readers here. Just awareness that this is a huge problem for women, and that the portrayals of women in the media probably have something to do with it. In fact, I don’t know how the couldn’t. I’ll be interested to research this later and report anything I may find.

    If thinking about some random woman getting raped doesn’t upset you, think about the women in your life close to you. Are there more than four? Chances are one of them has, or will in their lifetime experience sexual assault, molestation, or rape. This is your mother, your sister, your daughter, your grandchildren, your cousins, and your wives.

    So, if you understand what I am trying to say, even the slightest bit. Try this experiment before unnecessarily defending your gender to me. The next time you encounter an angry feminist, try telling her you understand why she is upset. And explain any of these, or the above post’s concepts to her.

    I would be astonished if she was still an “angry” feminist towards you afterwards.

  34. An Equalists Perspective Says:

    Dear A Female Perspective,
    To start off, I want to say I agree with many of the points that you have made, especially when you talked about childrens TV commercials. Boys start off at a young age being more fierce and violent because of what they see other boys doing, and what they see on TV. They watch shows about fighting, and people being hurt and killed. Also, girls watch their friends and commercials using light, pink colors and playing with dolls. My question is, how would you change this? Would you want boys to dress us in dresses for commercials and play with Barbies? And have girls playing with toy guns and watching action movies? Would these children even enjoy this? Probabaly not, so why make them do this? You also stated “the girl who the doll is clearly geared towards. The message is that this toy is for little girls to play with, and on a sicker level, that parenting is solely a job for females.” When they have boys playing with cars on commercials, does this “sickly” mean that the message of this commercial is to imply that parenting is solyly a job for males? No.
    About the looks….. You say that all women beat themselves up trying to look like the “perfect female” for men. Why, then, are all lesbians morbidly obese if they have no men to “look good” for. Did it occur to you that some of them might love their bodies and want to stay in shape? Or try to be beautiful. You say that people are sexist to both sexes, but you only brought up the female argument on most of your points. Do men not undergo this as well? Do women not want a “perfect man”? And how many men work out for hours every single day to have the muscles desired by women? Do you think that men would try as hard to lose fat and gain muscle if they didnt have women to impress? On commercials, you never see an out of shape person on there, male or female.
    Also on the commercials, how women are seen taking care of the children, and cleaning the house, while men are shown grilling, is this being sexist? Or just a fact of life. If anything this is showing the advantage women have in life, many women being stay at home mom’s and not having to labor all day long every day to support their families. Many women stay at home while their husbands work 1, 2, or sometimes even 3 jobs! So how hard is it to help out your husband and help the kids pack, or make them lemonade? About the jobs shown for men and women, when your male partner and you are home alone, do you go outside and grill, while he cleans the house or cooks inside? For arguments sake you migth say yes, but 99.9% of the time, the answer is no. THis is just custom, and tradition is not sexist, for neither task is more beneficial than the other.
    “But feminism is not exclusive to women, men can be feminists too. I feel that instead of the notion that feminism is about women playing victim and pointing fingers at men, deeming them the fault of everything unjust to women, it is about something far different.
    Feminism is the act of aiming for a world where women define themselves, and how we are portrayed in society, instead of being defined by men, for the pleasure of men, and portrayed as such by the patriarchal society around us.”
    How are women portrayed in society? As inferior? As submissive to men? A lot of the time yes!!! And I am sick of it, but instead of feminists ranting around complaining about it, they need to step up to the plate and start fighting for what is their equal rights, starting off with taking responsibility that they do not have, aviod talking about, and do not want, even though they want the freedom men have. Women have an equal opportunity to get any job that men have, and actually the stat out right now is that attractive, young women have a 0% unemployment!!!!! TO me this means they have a far better chance at getting a job then men, so what is it about complaining how society wants you to look, it only benefits you!! Also, back to taking responsibility.

    Selective Service!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Women want the full freedom that men have, want to be portrayed equal as men, want to not be soncisered inferior, but don’t, oh dear lord, my god, have to be willing to sacrifice their life for our country that has given them life, shelter, and equal opportunity that is almost unmatched anywhere else in the world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How can you even consider yourself worthy of even being able to vote, or own a car, if you do not have to sign selective service and have the possiblity of being drafted. How?????? I think that when women were given the right to vote, they should have been given the responsibility of selective service. If you are truely an equalist, and want to be equal to men, then you might say “well, yeah…. women should have to sign selective service too”, but you won’t do anything about it. THat is why women never bring up the topic, because it is SO fucking unjust and they know it. Women werent even ALLOWED on the front lines until very very recently, talking about a week ago. This is horrific!!! If women are so equal to men, why wouldn’t they have been allowed on the front lines in the first place?? please actually answer this.

    Also, your last comment, “You can’t be a woman and not be a feminist without hating yourself”. I find this completely wrong. I am not a masculinist, and I do not hate myself. Why can’t women accept that almost everyone agrees on equal rights, and we are slowly reaching equality, instead of talking about how much you don’t have? Which, by the way, is almost completely made up BS “facts” that feminists say that have no supporting evidence like “Society looks down upon women” and “Women are not treated right”…
    The End… and to remind you i am an equalist and if women and men were 100% equal on this earth, it would be heaven for me.

    Dear Another point,
    Your entire lecture was about men raping women. First of all, I want to say, I do not this this has anything to do with sexism at all. I feel this only happens, because there is an overwhelming number of heterosexual males, compared to homosexual males, and has nothing to do with women. If this were flipped, and almost all of the males on earth were homosexual, then males would be being raped more. This is simply a fact, and has nothing to do with a woman being a woman. I do realize that rape occurs more often than made out to be, and its a pretty bad crime, but it, again, has nothing to do with sexism. I see where you are coming from saying how in certain movies and pornos, men are showed “raping” women. This is merely an extremely kinky, odd, fetish. None of the people I know who I have talked to about this topic, or people who I have interviewed, have found this the least bit pleasurable, and most find it disturbing.
    About the men wanting to be dominant, and the women “not” wanting to be conquered, what is wrong with this? When you have sex, even though after your experience of being “raped” I don’t know if you would, but who is the more dominant person? The male. This is simply because of the sex positions. If the most common sexual intercourse positions were female dominant, where the woman was doing the “work”, then I am sure that all views of gender related dominance would be flipped. But, how our bodies are made now, it is much easier for the male to be in “control” and make the experience more pleasurable.

    Lastly, and I don’t have much more time, I want to point some things out that are completely and unfairly in a woman’s favor. If a man slaps a woman, it’s ABUSE. If a woman slaps a man, it’s a JOKE, or not viewed as important. I don’t ahve time to look up the stats, but think of how many men are hit, slapped, and ABUSED every day, In elementary schools, middle schools, highschools, and wherever. How many of these are reported? How many guys slap girls everyday? ….. maybe 1 slap a day in the whole world? I’m just guessing here but probably .000000001% of acts of violence against males are reported each year, while probabaly like 75-90% against females are reported each year.

    More Lastly,
    As already said on here…. I think… If a woman gets pregnant and wants to abort the child, but the father loves his child and wants to keep it, the woman can just get it sliced up, thrown out and done with, and the father will just have his child killed. On the other hand, if a mother gets pregnant and wants to KEEP her child, and the pregnancy was an accident, and the father wants it aborted, and then the child is born, the father will have to pay for it for the next 18 years of his life.
    Tell me how this is fair??
    I would really like some answers on these please, because I do not not understand how feminists can live everyday, knowing and ignoring these horrible crimes that are occurring.

  35. Dustin Says:

    I have always been for equality. I want it for races, genders, sexes, and everything else. I came from a family where being a racist was accepted, and even at a very early age I knew this was wrong and spoke up against my parents (which didn’t get me anywhere good, trust me.)

    I am all for women (and men) promoting feminism if the cause is to stop the degradation of women in the media. People (not just women) are too weak to think for themselves and get cues for just about everything they do from the media. Women and men both suffer from how the media portrays us, as another poster said. Men want unrealistic women, and women want unrealistic men. I dont know if this will ever change, and Im not sure how much I actually care about it. In the end, the weaker men and women will always fall victim to these stereotypes. Stronger men and women will rise above it. As a society we are too fixated on trying to make everyones life perfect, when this is unattainable and impractical. Ive never been known to be a selfish person, and Im usually the first to pitch in for anyone when they need something, but that doesnt mean as a society we should bend over backwards to support the weak (codeword: lazy) at the GREAT expense of the strong.

    Id like to make a clear distinction between the weak and the helpless. The helpless need our help. The weak are usually a little too lazy to help themselves even though they have the ability to do so.

    That’s a very long intro to get to my big problem with feminism, and thats the way with which rape is viewed. If a women wants to ruin a man, all she has to do is claim rape. If a woman regrets something she has done, all she has to do is claim rape to save face. Our laws have been set up so that in most circumstances nowadays, the only thing you need to be convicted of rape is an accuser. You need zero evidence to get most convictions.

    If a man and a woman share a bottle of alcohol, get drunk, and have sex, the law says that the man raped her. It doesnt matter if they were both drunk, or even if he was more drunk. According to rape law, a women cannot be held liable for her decision making while drunk, but a man can. This is confusing, since a woman can still be held liable for drunk driving, and she will almost be told by the judge to make better decisions, or something similar to that, at her trial.

    If a man is drunk and a woman is not, and they have sex, the woman is not considered a rapist. Again, this only makes sense if a woman is not allowed to make judgments if she is drunk, but a man is. I would think feminism would be against this type of thinking, but they prevailing thought in feminist culture is that this is a good thing, and in fact, feminists fought for these views in the first place.

    The law rarely goes after someone who makes a false rape accusation. Feminists have pushed this thought because it makes woman who were ACTUALLY raped less likely to pursue their cases because men would try to get them in trouble.

    Again, the problem here is that a woman can just say a man raped her, and he’ll get sent to jail, but if a woman is proven to have given a false report, she is unlikely to be sent to jail for it.

    Ill finish up with a personal story. I was at a party that started getting out of hand. It was college, and there was way too much alcohol consumption. Not a single person at the party was sober. One of the ‘good’ girls who wasn’t known as a partier approached me, and started molesting me in front of the whole party. Literally everyone there started watching, and laughing about it. Although she was very attractive, I still felt a little uncomfortable about this; this was happening in public. Although I didn’t want it to continue, I didnt know how to stop it, although I did try for the first 5-10 seconds (of a 3-4 minute ordeal).

    I felt violated, but I got over it rather quickly. In fact, I wouldnt have minded at all if this had been a private ordeal, I did like the girl. The problem happens the next day, when she claims that I raped her. Luckliy for me, someone at the party RECORDED the event, and it clearly shows her coming to me without me asking, doing things to me without me asking, and even shows me trying to stop it.

    So what happens to the girl here? After she saw the video, she dropped the charges, like that even mattered at the point.

    Now lets look at this as if it happened the other way. If I did one of the many things to her that she did to me, Id be in prison for a long time, and Id be kicked out of school, especially since this event was recorded.

    What happens to her? Absolutely nothing. The event is recorded and the police wont even pursue a charge. She accuses me of rape, and is allowed to get away with that as well. She gets to keep her freedom, and she gets to graduate. The only thing she has to live down is an embarrassing story.

    This is the result of feminism, because feminism is not about equality, its about superiority, and getting the ‘best’ deal you can get. Feminists want equality when it suits them, and superiority when it suits them.

  36. krista Says:

    First of all… Dustin I am sorry that you were violated. No one should ever have to go through that. She should have been prosecuted and sent to jail. First for hurting you and then for lying. Also I think you should revisit the laws and statistics surrounding rape/sexual assault. If the woman is sober and the man is not, he was technically raped in the eyes of the law and less that 5% of sexual assault/rape cases see a conviction. When they are convicted… they usually only serve less than half their term. Back to what i was going to say. I think the argument is one that both genders should participate in regularly. Both genders are affected by sexism and gender roles. Both genders participate in sexism. However, you can not deny the overwhelming violence against women. It has only been within the last 100 years that women have earned that right to vote, to own property, to be the heads of their household, to marry whom they want (and those are in select places). Until 1994 it was legal for men to rape their wives in the United States. Yes, men have problems too but they are not feminist problems. There is not a world wide epidemic of women raping men or even beating men. It has never been legal for women to own their husbands, beat their husbands or rape their husbands. You cannot deny the connotations given to the “feminine” everywhere. According to society we are weak, emotional, unstable and useless if unattractive. As far as women and men wanting partners that are unrealistic…. it is patriarchy’s fault. As young people we are told that women are this way and men are another way (roles created by patriarchal societies). Anything in between isn’t worth our time. Patriarchy tells us that men are supposed to be strong, emotionally unresponsive, in control of everything, feared and strong. Women are supposed to be the opposite. So of course in the mists of that whole system people are considered weird and are met with hostel responses (women more often than men). Women are also not expected to pick their partners based on how they look. We are expected to choose according to temper, bravery, social standing and assertiveness. Men are expected to pick their partner first on how they look and then how they act. A woman can be anything but is also expected to be beautiful. Feminism is the idea that women are more than objects of pleasure or utility. It is the idea that regardless of what you look like, you still deserves respect and love. Of course feminism is a women’s movement. It was started by women who were tired of being treated as though they are expendable and don’t deserve respect by society and the men in their lives. Also just to let you know less that half of women in the UK and the US claim that they are feminist. It is because society has done a wonderful job of vilifying feminist. Articles like this tell women and men that feminism is no longer necessary and that it is simply a bunch a lesbian, bitches trying to take over the world. I would like you to show this to any woman living in a sex trafficking circle or any women in America who’s husband beats her and her children. Go home and tell you mother, your wife, your sister and your daughter and explain to them why having respect for yourself is wrong. Another thing… aren’t right’s there to protect a person’s equality? For example, if I do not have the right to speak in public then I am less equal to someone who does. So I have to fight for the right to equally participate in society. If someone has a right that you don’t then society is saying that, for some reason, the person who has the right I greater than the person without the right (i.e. the right to vote, the right to freedom of religion, freedom of speech…). In case you didn’t get it the first couple of times… if I had the right to do something you couldn’t then our social status isn’t equal. Needless to say I don’t agree with your comment about rights not being compatible with equality. If you could explain the statement in more detail maybe it would make sense.

  37. Patrick Brown Says:

    Krista, your comments were aimed at Dustin, but I’d like to reply to a few things you’ve said.

    However, you can not deny the overwhelming violence against women.

    Yes I can. Women are overwhelmingingly safer from violence than anyone, including children.

    Until 1994 it was legal for men to rape their wives in the United States.

    Last year a French man was ordered by a court to pay his ex-wife 10,000 Euros for not having sex with her enough. In Mexico a man can go to prison for five years for not having enough sex with his wife.

    There is not a world wide epidemic of women raping men or even beating men.

    Nor is there a “world wide epidemic” of men raping or beating women. Crimes against women are relatively rare.

    It has never been legal for women to own their husbands, beat their husbands or rape their husbands.

    It is legal for women to rape their husbands in exactly the same way as it used to be legal for husbands to rape their wives – nobody has ever passed a law against it. It is also de facto legal for women to beat their husbands, as when it happens law enforcement does not take it seriously. It is even more or less legal for women to murder their husbands in their sleep, so long as they can come up with a flimsy allegation of abuse on his part. As for ownership, that’s only ever been a metaphor, and it applies equally in the other direction – women have always felt as entitled to their husband’s property and the proceeds of his labour as husbands have to the domestic labour of their wives. And still, after divorce, the wife’s entitlement to her husband’s property and labour remains, while the husband’s entitlement to the wife’s labour evaporates.

    You cannot deny the connotations given to the “feminine” everywhere. According to society we are weak, emotional, unstable and useless if unattractive.

    You also can’t deny that the “feminine” has connotations of moral superiority and greater entitlement to the compassion of others. Meanwhile, according to society men are dangerous, uncaring, untrustworthy and, to reverse your phrase, unattractive if useless. Men are regarded as utilitarian and disposable.

    Also just to let you know less that half of women in the UK and the US claim that they are feminist. It is because society has done a wonderful job of vilifying feminist.

    Wrong. The media is pretty much uniformly feminist, and anyone who questions it publicly is vilified. The reason why people don’t identify as feminists is because far too many feminists are entitled supremacists, and almost all the ones that aren’t entitled supremacists ignore or indulge the ones that are.

  38. confoosed Says:

    why is it wrong for babydoll commericals to feature girls? girls are the ones who are going to have babies when the grow up…most likely. boys are not. it’s normal for kids to play act at roles they will have when they are older. i just don’t see why this is such a big deal.


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