Gender Inconsistencies

November 4th, 2009 by Pelle Billing
  1. Women want full independence — Women want male protection when things get rough or dangerous
  2. Men and women can vote — The draft and compulsory military service are male only
  3. Men are expected to work in jobs that they do not care for to support their families – Men are lazy for not doing half of the housework
  4. When boys perform badly in school there is a “crisis in masculinity” — When girls or women perform badly they are being discriminated against
  5. Women “get rid of jerks” — Men “cannot commit”
  6. Male circumcision is a proud tradition — Female circumcision is abhorred, even the kinds that are milder than male circumcision
  7. Commenting on a woman’s cleavage is sexual harassment — A woman who purposely flaunts her cleavage at work is not sexually harassing anyone
  8. All good men pay for the date — All good men support gender neutral pay
  9. Men’s financial power must be controlled — Women’s sexual power must be liberated
  10. Fathers should take care of their children — Children aren’t DNA tested to establish paternity
  11. Men prey on women — Women exercise their sexual freedom
  12. The overarching inconsistency: Men are responsible for their actions and failures — Women are victims of circumstances or societal structures

39 Responses to “Gender Inconsistencies”

  1. Toysoldier Says:

    Honestly, I think the last one sums up the general inconsistency. No matter what, men are always responsible whereas no matter what women are always victims of their circumstances. This narrative has been around for some time (although it is a more recent development in Western culture), but it has been woefully perpetuated and worsened in modern society, both by society at large and by feminists. That attitude explains why women who commit the same crimes as men receive far lesser sentences, assuming they are charged at all.

  2. Jay R Says:

    Feminism has proudly led so many women to view themselves as victims of men, of motherhood, of biology … of everything! As perpetual victims, they are like children; they have no real adult agency or responsibility, but still can lay claim to entitlements in every area in which their interests compete with men’s — the ultimate affirmative action program.

    “Women and children first!” Indeed. Notice how “women” precedes even “children”? (Just think about abortion …)

    Because of its DEMANDS for unearned respect and equal results rather than equal opportunity, even as it continually spotlights women’s weakness, Feminism makes it impossible for women to EARN respect as men have always had to do. Abandoning the feminine, they awkwardly embrace masculine roles and demand deference just for showing up. To their surprise, they receive disdain, instead.

    I feel sorry for women who do actually deserve respect; they have a tough row to hoe, these days.

  3. Eivind Says:

    Nice, Pelle!

    Condense them to ten and I’ll call them my ten commandments!

    Can I use these on my site?

    Eivind

  4. Pelle Billing Says:

    Thanks Eivind! If you want to condense them to 10, then I suggest removing the last two–perhaps making the last one a summary without a number.

    You can use them on your site as long as you include my name and link back to this post.

  5. desipis Says:

    I think these provide a great example of why attempts to construct broad generalisations of something as diverse as a particular gender are destined to fail.

  6. Feckless Says:

    Spot on…

  7. unomi Says:

    Men’s financial power must be controlled — Women’s sexual power must be liberated

    And men have no sexual power?

    Commenting on a woman’s cleavage is sexual harassment — A woman who purposely flaunts her cleavage at work is not sexually harassing anyone

    Commenting on a man’s package is sexual harassment — A man who purposely wears tight pants at work is not sexually harassing anyone

    Women want full independence — Women want male protection when things get rough or dangerous

    And a third of all women in the US military have been raped by their own colleagues.

    Fathers should take care of their children — Children aren’t DNA tested to establish paternity

    Any man wanting to DNA test their child has the legal right to do so in most jurisdictions.

  8. Pelle Billing Says:

    “And men have no sexual power?”

    Women have far more. Men produce millions of sperm per hour, women produce 400 eggs per lifetime. Who has more reason to be selective? Who’s buying and who’s selling?

    “Commenting on a man’s package is sexual harassment — A man who purposely wears tight pants at work is not sexually harassing anyone”

    The mating game between men and women consists of women displaying their attractiveness, and men initiating the mating sequence. So even though your example is correct, it is very uncommon. However, the bottom line is that any workplace concerned about sexual harassment should have a dress code, otherwise they don’t even have the right to talk about sexual harassment. So your example will be regulated in my proposal.

    “And a third of all women in the US military have been raped by their own colleagues.”

    Link to research please.

    “Any man wanting to DNA test their child has the legal right to do so in most jurisdictions.”

    That’s not nearly good enough. DNA testing should be coupled to legal paternity, that’s a basic parental right, and a basic right for the child.

  9. unomi Says:

    Who has more reason to be selective?

    Both, seeing as how they are unlikely to want to have more than two or maybe three children.

    The mating game between men and women consists of women displaying their attractiveness, and men initiating the mating sequence.

    Links to research please.

    Link to research please.

    http://www.veteransforpeace.org/files/pdf/Sadler%20Military%20Environment.pdf

    DNA testing should be coupled to legal paternity, that’s a basic parental right, and a basic right for the child.

    Everyone has the right to do it, you want to force them. That’s different.

  10. Pat Kibbon Says:

    unomi Says:
    November 6th, 2009 at 9:42 am

    And men have no sexual power?

    Sometimes, people have conversations in which they discuss the frequency with which they are subjected to unwanted, uninvited sexual attention; they may describe the sense of intimidation they experience as a result, and how they might thwart such uninvited attention. Would the people discussing these issues tend to be members of one particular sex?

    Sometimes, people have conversations in which they discuss how they might weaken resistance to their uninvited sexual attention. Would the people discussing this issue tend to be members of one particular sex?

  11. Danny Says:

    unomi:

    Commenting on a man’s package is sexual harassment — A man who purposely wears tight pants at work is not sexually harassing anyone

    Yet between commenting on a man’s package and commenting on a woman’s cleavage which is more likely to taken seriously when brought up?

    And a third of all women in the US military have been raped by their own colleagues.
    And who to women’s advocates point the finger at when asked who can stop rape? Men. Not just the ones the commit the crime but all of us. By sharing gender with rapists we are all somehow held responsible for it. Funny how such monolithing only happens when talking about violence against women.

    Any man wanting to DNA test their child has the legal right to do so in most jurisdictions.
    Then why is DNA testing so vigorously separated from legal paternity? Why is it that a women can track a man down years after a child is born and hit him for child support based on a DNA test but that same DNA test can’t be used to prove that a man who has been supporting a child that is not his should be freed from financial support obligations?

    The mating game between men and women consists of women displaying their attractiveness, and men initiating the mating sequence.

    Links to research please.
    Dating rituals is all the data you need to see this. In the past and for the most part still true now men are expected to make the first move and women are expected to wait for him to make the first move and then respond. Feminists themselves often talk about how they don’t like how this dynamic pretty much keeps a woman from making the first move even when she wants to. Many high schools (at least in the States) have dances with special circumstances in which the girl is supposed to ask the guy out which is played up as a reverse of the norm. The expectation of men making the first move is a part of our (American) culture. I would like to see it change as much as feminists.

  12. cadbad Says:

    The military is for killers. We are not talking choir boys here. The brutal reality of war is rape and murder and mutilation and death. The military risk their lives to defend the country. This is not a game for women stroke their egos or vent their frustrations with men.

    I read that in the Israeli military women are forbidden from combat because the men will take stupid risks to protect them and there are higher casualty rates.

    Imagine a woman POW trying to sue because she get raped repeatedly by muslims with smelly beards over and over again on the internet to degrade morale.

    The military is not a picnic it is bloody stinking guts and fear and true hell. Women need to get the hell out of the kitchen if they can’t take the heat. Women invade every aspect of the male world, but are allowed to keep exclusive women’s only clubs. If they screw up the military and we loose, then they will learn to behave like muslim women do.

  13. Patrick Brown Says:

    Here’s a news release from the US Department of Defense:

    http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=11757

    I quote:

    The Gender Relations survey, conducted by the Defense Manpower Data Center (DMDC), was based on a sample of 23,595 respondents and found that 34 percent of active duty women and 6 percent of active duty men indicated experiencing sexual harassment, while 6.8 percent of women and 1.8 percent of men indicated experiencing unwanted sexual contact.

    The survey Unomi links to was based on “A national cross-sectional survey of 558 women veterans serving in Vietnam or in subsequent eras [which] was obtained through structured telephone interviews.”

    I’ll leave it to the reader to consider which is more likely to be accurate.

  14. Pelle Billing Says:

    Thanks Patrick. Unomi’s assertion that “a third of all women in the US military have been raped” seemed questionable from the start, so I’m thankful for the higher quality research that gives us some better numbers.

  15. unomi Says:

    Yes well if you don’t know anything about research methodology, it’s obviously very easy to be thankful. I’m not going to confuse you with the facts.

  16. Jim Says:

    “I’m not going to confuse you with the facts.”

    Indeed. You’re not even going to try to enlighten us with actual facts.

  17. Klas Says:

    “And a third of all women in the US military have been raped by their own colleagues.”

    unomi, you lied to us. That is the actual fact here.

  18. unomi Says:

    Klas dear, it’s not the actual fact, it’s a press release from the US military about the US military.

    The fact that so many of you find it more credible than independent, academic research shows exactly why I’m not going to bang my head against a brick wall waste time trying to argue with you.

    A few pointers though:

    - Try to learn about the difference between “quantitative” and “qualitative” research.
    - Read something about the difficulties facing an employer surveying its own employees
    - Learn about how to best conduct research on extremely personal, sensitive issues like rape
    - Learn about RAPE for god’s sake. It takes years for many victims to acknowledge what has happened to them, and they may not necessarily be “active duty women and men” when that happens. (This would come under the chapter “Finding the right sample population” in one of the books that you are hopefully going to read.)

    Now, where’s the scientific research to back up the claim that “the mating game between men and women consists of women displaying their attractiveness, and men initiating the mating sequence”?

  19. Chris Marshall Says:

    Unomi:

    You originally claimed:

    And a third of all women in the US military have been raped by their own colleagues.

    Is that your honest read of the study you linked to?

    It didn’t look to me like the study was designed to estimate what fraction of all women who have served in the U.S. millitary have been raped by their colleagues.

    It was interesting how the researchers made a point of contacting the non-responders, though.

  20. Pelle Billing Says:

    If you actually read the report Unomi, as opposed to only reading the abstract, you’ll see that the number of women raped is 21%, the rest were attempted rapes.

    So 1 out of 5, not 1 out of 3 women.

    It’s still a problem to be dealt with, but getting the numbers right is important.

  21. klas Says:

    unomi, thanks for your reply, and thanks for your suggestions.

    But…first from the text from your reference:

    “Cohort selection has been previously described [Sadler
    et al., 2000, 2001] but we summarize it here for the reader’s
    convenience. A historical cohort of women veterans who
    served in the Vietnam (February 28, 1961 to May 7, 1975);
    post-Vietnam (May 8, 1975 to August 1, 1990); and the
    Persian Gulf (August 2, 1990 to present) eras was selected
    from the Department of Veterans Affairs (DVA) comprehensive
    women’s health care centers’ registries (N¼8693).
    Random samples were selected (N¼2172) within region and
    era of service strata.
    An introductory letter, information summary, and consent
    form approved by the Institutional Review Boards (IRB)
    of the University of Iowa and DoD were sent to all subjects
    with postage-paid preaddressed return envelopes. Mailings
    were distributed over a 6 month period (September 1996 to
    March 1997) to minimize lag between consent and participation.
    Follow-up letters were mailed to non-responders
    approximately 6 weeks after initial contact.
    Computer-assisted telephone interviews by the University
    of Iowa Social Science Institute (Iowa City, Iowa) were
    scheduled with subjects who returned signed consent forms.
    Interviewers were women specifically trained for this project;
    their performance and data quality was monitored. From
    November 1996 through May 1997, 558 subjects completed
    interviews and were compensated financially ($40.00) for the
    time required to participate.”

    For people like you and me, especially you, that know a lot about research, this text should be enough. But for other readers I ought to mention that only 26% of the sample chose to be interviewed.

    unomi, if I have missed anything or if you can bring more research or information, or if I have misunderstood the paper, please let me know. Have a nice weekend all of you.

  22. unomi Says:

    A low number/ratio of respondents is never a good thing, but “forced” answers do not necessarily lead to more accurate results. I’m guessing one or two or 10,000 of those interviewed by the US military may have had a problem discussing rape and sexual harassment with a perfect stranger on the phone, and may not have answered 100% honestly.

    In fact, a quantative telephone survey is a textbook example of how not to learn more about rape. (Anyone concerned with men’s rights should think about this, since the social stigma attached to rape is even greater for men.)

    And for the third time, when are you going to back up the quasi scientific claim about women “displaying their beauty” in the “mating game” with some research? Or do you only dissect statements that do not agree with your own world view?

  23. Pelle Billing Says:

    “And for the third time, when are you going to back up the quasi scientific claim about women “displaying their beauty” in the “mating game” with some research?”

    Ever heard of the cosmetics industry? Check out what proportion of their profits come from women.

    Then check out the jewelry industry and do the same.

    And while you’re at it, why don’t you have a look at clothes and shoes profit too.

    When you’re done, please finish your homework, because we’re having a fourth grade conversation here.

  24. unomi Says:

    The term “mating game” has biological undertones that are inappropriate here.

    And in case you didn’t get the memo, most women spend a considerable amount of time discussing the relative attractiveness of different men, so you’d think they want to display their attractiveness too.

    As for who makes the first move, it has historically been the man but that’s changing. I’m gay and even I have been the subject of straight women’s (misguided) advances.

  25. Eivind Says:

    The reason why women are starting to take the lead in the first stages of the play of attraction is that they have overall as a gender turned more masculine. Men in turn have turned more feminine. So women are displaying more hunter traits than they used to and men are displaying less.

    This runs counter to nature, and is a result of cultural conditioning and the deconstruction of gender roles. The hunter is hardwired into the man’s genetic makeup (the man with a masculine core). It isn’t in the woman’s (the woman with a feminine core). What we see today is a passing cultural fad that is turning most people into depressed and miserable zombies. Good for capitalism. Bad for love, truth, planet, indeed Life as we know it. Such is the price of denying our true nature.

    Some of us have however already moved on to the next stage – yes progressed, not devolved. We see and feel the results as increased happiness, truth and love.

    That is not to say that there is not a place for masculine women and feminine men. It just so happens that the numbers we see in society today are not a reflection of people’s actual inner lives. Most people are, essentially, completely lost, devoid of hope and totally despondent.

    This is an interesting debate, but seems to belong in another thread. Pelle?

    Eivind

  26. Pelle Billing Says:

    Unomi:
    “The term “mating game” has biological undertones that are inappropriate here.”

    Come again? Choosing a partner is very much related to biology. Human sexuality evolved so that two biological bodies could meet and procreate.
    Obviously sex doesn’t need to be about procreating, but it certainly involves two (or more) biological bodies interacting, unless you are doing some kind of simulation.

    So I’ll keep on using the words mating game.

    “And in case you didn’t get the memo, most women spend a considerable amount of time discussing the relative attractiveness of different men, so you’d think they want to display their attractiveness too.”

    Talk is cheap. What people actually spend time and money doing is a far better indicator of what is important to them.

    “As for who makes the first move, it has historically been the man but that’s changing. I’m gay and even I have been the subject of straight women’s (misguided) advances.”

    Yes, women can make the first move and sometimes do. But it’s far less common that than the other way around. Remember the link I gave you to a Swedish study?

  27. Pelle Billing Says:

    Eivind,

    I may write a post about that at some point, but in the meantime feel free to discuss it in this thread.

    Innate factors have been attacked and ignored for a few decades now, but they are on the rise again, and researchers are showing that’s it’s simply not possible to ignore them when discussing gender or human behavior.

    I agree that political correctness can keep people from accessing their inner core, but I feel that a change is coming. There’s something in the air…

  28. Eivind F S Says:

    “There’s something in the air…”

    Damn, Pelle, have you farted again?

    Ah whoops, we’re supposed to be all serious here. Sorry!

    (I agree though)

    :-D

  29. Hausfrau Says:

    Hmm, I think the feminists could easily post a match for your list, and it would be just as unproductive.

    For example, your entry 1) — the same idiocy exists for women, ladies who want to be housewives are viewed as useless parasites by many people.

    For almost every point in that laundry lists of complaints I can show you a classic pattern that traps women in the same way as men are trapped.

    I don’t think this general complaining will help anyway, we know the problems already, what we need is solutions :)

    Re: the DNA situation — always demand a DNA test at birth before you sign the paternity, if only to protect the child (switching in hospital happens more often than you think and if gives peace of mind too for everyone, plus the kid has a right to know it’s genetic parents too!) and then to throw a big party to celebrate the confirmation of your genetic fatherhood and frame the result.

    This will eventually have a social effect if enough people do it, remember, women too have good reasons to assure men that they are indeed the father, given the natural tendency to attempt to see similarities between the baby and the father whenever is possible.

    Besides that, it’s a great excuse for a party, so what is not to love?

  30. Pelle Billing Says:

    Hausfrau,
    Sure, you could do a list with inconsistencies for women. But the point is that most people don’t think that you can do the list that I made, while feminism has taught everyone about the double standards that affect women.

    I agree that every man should do a DNA test before signing paternity.

  31. unomi Says:

    @Pelle

    By linking a certain behaviour to “the” mating game you are implying that there is only one type of behaviour. Different people will have different mating games, and sometimes women are the ones initiating that process.

    Men’s beauty products is one of the world’s fastest growing retail markets. People change.

    @Eivind

    I think you would probably do well as a Harlequin author, or maybe a capitalist conspiracy theorist (if you can make that pay).

    One thing about your scientific-ish comment re. hunters: We don’t know a lot about how men and women communicated in ancient hunter-gatherer societies. What we do know, is that they hunted for animals. So unless they were going to eat their partners, the “hunting” analogy is completely misplaced here.

  32. Pelle Billing Says:

    Unomi:
    “By linking a certain behaviour to “the” mating game you are implying that there is only one type of behaviour.”

    Nope. What I’m doing is generalizing and that is entirely compatible with respecting all the individual expressions. The difference is whether you are taking the perspective of the collective or the individual. Then of course you can generalize for different subgroups as well…

    “Men’s beauty products is one of the world’s fastest growing retail markets. People change.”

    I’ll listen to you when it reaches 50 percent of that of women. I’m not holding my breath though.

  33. Jim Says:

    “We don’t know a lot about how men and women communicated in ancient hunter-gatherer societies. ”

    But we know something about how they communicate today. They are not all gone – the hunter-gatherer economy may be gone, but the people are still around to interview. In any case it’s almost certainly a waste of time to generalize about a broad range of cultures based on one characteristic. Do all pastoral cultures, or cultures where pastoralism has been very important, have the same gender relations? Hardly. Wyoming, Ireland and Somalia could hardly be more different. So yeah, even if we did know a lot, the data would probably all conflict.

    “What we do know, is that they hunted for animals.”

    Whereas there was a large number of *agricultural* cultures in the Pacific that specifically did hunt humans. That’s one of the reasons that Polynesians and others in the region in general tend to be very nuanced in their criticisms of their missionaries.

  34. unomi Says:

    @Pelle

    And by the same token Europeans are white Christians, and South Africans are black.

  35. Hausfrau Says:

    @Pelle:

    “But the point is that most people don’t think that you can do the list that I made, while feminism has taught everyone about the double standards that affect women.”

    But most people don’t actually think about what feminists say (they say a lot when the day is long ;-) but only catch a flavour which eventually coalesces into a POV, the more they hear it. People rarely actively think about their opinions(and often don’t agree with themselves once you go digging deeper), even folks who have been taught about logic rarely do this. It’s amazing how many people believe in various forms that when ever they take their umbrella with them, it’ll be guaranteed to rain ;-)

    So, it’s not only what you say, but also how to message is packaged.

    Besides your punters are not the feminists themselves, but the women they broadcast their propaganda to. You not only have to reach those ladies, but you also have to shape your message into a form that people want to hear and like to remember, and if you make it cool/funny enough that they want to gossip about it with their friends, then you’re onto a winner.

    One thing to remember is that even tho they claim they don’t, women *really* despise a weak/tolerant man.

    A whingy man who shows weakness and who is on the defensive is not listened to, and often despised very much, no matter what the contents of his words is. It’s not personal, but it signals on another level that the man is a beta- male and a pushover who can’t be relied on when the chips are down, and thus not worth taking note of, and all sorts of other dominance issues kick in. This is not terribly overt, but an underlying process that just seeps enough of a flavour onto the topic as to make it unfun to engage with.

    Another thing is, with that list, you’re telling the girls that they are unreasonable, and that is of course never popular!

    Feminists on the other hand have a better sales pitch here — they tell the ladies ‘you’ll be the winners’ and that is far more interesting to listen to than a (justified) long list of equivalences in complaint form.

    Hence, I think such a list is a mistake in general, even tho I totally agree with the contents.

  36. Paul Says:

    This is sort of a thought experiment, but Im interested if it resonates with anyone else…

    @hausfrau: ‘One thing to remember is that even tho they claim they don’t, women *really* despise a weak/tolerant man’

    I really do believe that this is true, and if we could prove the truth of it, how telling would it be for so many issues discussed on this site!

    Along the these lines, I believe that many younger women (ie at the age when they are most actively looking for sexual partners) overwhelmingly go for physically powerful, dominant, arrogant, and risk-taking men – ie, the alpha males. So much so, that a some of these men come to believe that all women are available to them (which in some cases is not terribly far from the truth). I feel that this situation is at play in many rapes. Then again, men at the bottom of the dominance pile may get no partner and may rape out of frustration, or because they have become misogynist as a result. I cant say this is the only, or even the main cause of rape – I dont know- however I do believe strongly that this mechanism is at play.

    Lets assume for a moment that we could prove that the above effect does exist and is an ultimate cause of many ills like rape, inequality in wages and distribution of wealth. Which would be the group who could do most about this situation by changing their behavior? Women or men?

    So lets further assume we approach the women – for the good of humanity you understand – and ask them to change that behavior, to try to eliminate the worst effects of the alpha male phenomenon . How far would we get do you think? Destructive as it is for modern society, I dont think we will see that end of the alpha male anytime soon, because it’s biology, and not easily accessible to change through rational action.

    It feels to me though that in many cases, feminists think that its perfectly reasonable that men change their biology, as if we could change it at will, or through legislation.

  37. Pelle Billing Says:

    Paul,

    I think it would be interesting to know more about the motivations and thoughts of rapists. Does anyone know of any good research?

    When it comes to male and female (mating) behavior I think it goes far beyond individual choice. Strong forces such as needing to survive and needing your offspring to survive has shaped the choices of women and men. So I wouldn’t say that we can blame either gender for how our systems of attraction developed.

  38. Paul Says:

    @Pelle
    “When it comes to male and female (mating) behavior I think it goes far beyond individual choice. Strong forces such as needing to survive and needing your offspring to survive has shaped the choices of women and men. So I wouldn’t say that we can blame either gender for how our systems of attraction developed.”

    Yes! My post was a train of thought with a knot of intertwined issues, but this is central. Individual mate choice is strongly determined by the forces of sexual selection, and those forces, and the power structures that result, have lots of consequences, many negative – including, variously, being the ultimate cause of many cases of rape, the ultimate cause of much inequality, and the perpetuation of an increasingly pointless, greedy and selfish society. What served us well in the last 100,000 years does not seem to be working so well today.

    Now returning to my critique of feminism in the light of this: if i’m not mistaken, one of the central tenets of feminism is that men as a group are collectively responsible when any man rapes any woman, as if we had the power to change it. But I believe women themselves actively select for the very characteristics that will ensure the continued ocurrence of rape within our society. In other words its a closed loop. Further, while neither sex is ‘responsible’ for the situation, I believe women have far more power than men to break the loop, because they are the selectors – its their mate choices that determine what future society will look like.

    Im aware that this is not science but conjecture, or maybe even pseudo-science, but it rings true to me. I’m prepared to be educated if others with real experience in these fields have arrived at contradictory opinions.

  39. Pelle Billing Says:

    Women certainly have more power than men over sexual selection, so they do have power there.

    Men on the other hand are fathers, and as fathers have great influence over their sons. The quality of the father is a huge factor in how the son turns out.

    So I think both sexes have the power to change male behavior (and female, but we were talking about male behavior here).


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