Men’s Rights Manifesto

October 5th, 2010 by Pelle Billing

Men in every civilized country have the right to claim:

  1. That paternity be routinely established using DNA testing.
  2. That an established paternity automatically enable the same rights and responsibilities as an established maternity.
  3. That the default arrangement after a separation be joint legal and physical custody of any children; only to be changed if the parents voluntarily decide to do so, or if one of the parties be determined unfit to be a parent by a court of law.
  4. That women’s shelters receive no government grants unless they are transformed into human shelters, where all victims of domestic violence can get the help they need (women, men, children).
  5. That all human shelters be run professionally, under the same strict standards as those of other social services.
  6. That the military be staffed by people who apply voluntarily, and who receive a fair and reasonable compensation for the risks they assume.
  7. That conscription be used only for extreme reasons of national safety, and that such a measure be gender neutral.
  8. That the principle of “innocent until proven guilty” be upheld at all times, including allegations of rape or sexual harassment.
  9. That gender research be as free from ideology as any other academic field.
  10. That male expendability be recognized as a major gender issue.
  11. That boys be allowed to be proud of their coming manhood.
  12. That schools recognize the needs of boys and the learning styles of boys, so as to give them a fair chance of performing well.
  13. That men’s groups be given the same legal and practical opportunities as women’s groups to obtain funding.
  14. That male sexuality be portrayed in a positive and encouraging manner.
  15. That male circumcision only be legal for adults who voluntarily choose this kind of surgery.
  16. That prisons be organized in such a way as to prevent rape and other forms of assault.
  17. That meritocracy be the governing principle in the labor market, and that all forms of affirmative action and gender quotas disappear.
  18. That misandry be opposed just as vehemently as misogyny.
  19. That all legislation discriminating against men be made gender neutral or removed.
  20. That the historical sacrifice of the male gender role be recognized to the same extent as the historical sacrifice of the female gender role.

71 Responses to “Men’s Rights Manifesto”

  1. David Says:

    Top notch manifesto Pelle! You haven’t posted for some time and I have sorely missed you.

  2. Mark Davenport Says:

    great to have you active here again, Pelle. I do wince a bit at the ambitiousness of the maifesto. May it produce more than discussion!

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  4. hopeless_case Says:

    Pelle:

    A pleasure to see you writing again. I love your list.

    I predict that point 4 is going to be met with this response:

    When a woman has just been assaulted by a man, she is traumatized and needs a space free from men so she can feel safe.

    While this sounds pleasant to the ears, I have to wonder how true that is. Do victims of assault really need to be kept isolated for a time from other people that share some surface characteristic of their assailant like gender? Perhaps being helped by people in the shelter that share that surface characteristic would actually reassure the victim that not all X are out to get them, if that even is an issue and not just an attempt to trash men.

    It would be interesting to hear some therapists weigh in on this.

    It seems to me that a woman who has just been assaulted by a man has no more rational or emotional basis for needing a male free space that a woman who had been assaulted by a black man would need a black male free space, and that catering to such a thought might actually make the situation worse, by encouraging them to hate men as part of their therapy.

    One effect I have heard of the women-only shelter policies is that when a battered woman shows up with her 13+yo son, she is told they won’t allow her son to stay with her, which effectively turns her away.

    I think denying such shelters government funding because they violate the 14 ammendment’s equal protection clause is quite appropriate and long overdue.

  5. Enric Carbó Says:

    Great post, and good news to find you here again. I am going to see if I can translate it into Catalan for the next week and post it in my blog. It deserves it

  6. Corrado Says:

    The post itslef is great, but it’s even better to see you post again: we need contributions of your level more than ever!

  7. David Says:

    Seminal post, Pelle. :)

    One thing we might like to add, really an elaboration of 12–something about the masculine value sphere, particularly in schools.

    I have heard stories about boys not being allowed to compete, to tag people out, that sort of thing. The masculine value sphere is pathologized. One Danish man relates this story:

    “Another example was when some guys from my class became national champs in track and field. We were very proud of it, but our teacher wouldn’t let us cheer and celebrate. It was as if it wasn’t cool that we had won.”

    http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j41/what-ever-happened-to-the-vikings.asp?page=3

    So something about the masculine value sphere, competing, autonomy, individualism, “hurting feelings to save the rules,” male logic, etc. might be made explicit, particularly for school teachers, because they probably don’t realize what they are doing.

  8. Porky D. Says:

    Very nicely put indeed. Especially seeing as i feared you had died or dropped out of the movement.

  9. L. Byron Says:

    Some of the points – 19 & 20 especially – could use a little clarification & tightening up to be understood by the world at large. Most people, for instance, don’t believe men to be discriminated against at ALL, so it would be good to be more specific as to where these imbalances are taking place. Same goes for what historical sacrifices each sex is recognized for making, it’s a little unclear. But I can get behind pretty much all of this, good to have you back Pelle.

  10. Emilio Says:

    Suscribo punto por punto el contenido del post.

    Un saludo a todos

  11. Pelle Billing Says:

    Thanks for all the positive feedback. I was never gone, simply focusing on other stuff such as writing on my book (in Swedish) and traveling.

    The point of this list is to have a distillate of positive images to work towards, as opposed to naming everything that is wrong with men’s situation today. But yeah, the list definite needs some explaining for someone who’s not familiar with a gender analysis that includes men’s perspective.

    Feel free to repost this list on your own blog (with a link back to this page), and also feel free to add explanations after the list.

  12. David Says:

    I will post it on my forum at some point, Pelle. Did you like my double entendre? :)

  13. Pelle Billing Says:

    David,

    Yes, very slick :)

  14. Mark Davenport Says:

    Quibbling on point #4 about “human” shelters without regard for gender:

    Having had contact with women who’ve been seriously traumatized by physical/sexual abuse by men, I think it’s often difficult for we the
    un-traumatized (relatively spoeaking!) to comprehend the pre-rational , absolutely gut-based fear that thoughtless mixing of the sexes could do to them. Of course women can be similarly abused by other women as can men be abused by either men or women. But the important point to remember is that rational, fair-minded approaches need a lot of granularity to indeed be fair-minded. Yes/no clasifications that bureaucracies like won’t necessarly be able to sort in the best interests of any individual victim.

  15. Zammo Says:

    “…by encouraging them to hate men as part of their therapy.”

    I suspect this is the reason.

    Remember that feminism is the ideology of victimhood in order to gain privilege.

    Some interesting things to read about American shelters, here:

    http://www.ejfi.org/DV/dv-68.htm

  16. Pelle Billing Says:

    Mark,

    I agree that “it’s often difficult for we the un-traumatized (relatively spoeaking!) to comprehend the pre-rational , absolutely gut-based fear that thoughtless mixing of the sexes could do to them. ”
    So yes, initially women and men may need some breathing space before they “face” the opposite sex again. But I see no reason that this couldn’t be handled by a human shelter by having different sections/entrances/etc.
    I also believe it to be crucial for both women and men to face the other sex as soon as possible. Seeing positive role models of the opposite sex can be deeply healing in itself.

  17. hopeless_case Says:

    Mark:

    Fair enough, but the thoughtless separation of the sexes after an assault would be, I think, similarly ill-advised.

    I imagine you could do some real damage to someone after they have been traumatized by encouraging them to feel all people of type X are not to be trusted anymore.

    What sort of mixing of the sexes would you find problematic? If a woman who has just been raped by her husband arrives at a shelter and sees another woman there (who was beaten by her husband) with her 14yo son who weights 200 lbs and is 5 foot 10 inches tall, would that be so problematic for the rape victim that it becomes OK to turn away the woman with the son?

    Because that’s what the status quo amounts to. I claim that is a clear violation of the 14 ammendment and should not stand (in a government funded shelter).

  18. L. Byron Says:

    Yes, & also if a woman who has been beaten by her husband comes to a shelter & sees a man who has been stabbed by his wife or beaten up by her brothers & is too frightened to return home, that seems to me a great opportunity for healing, for promoting the understand that we are all human beings & need to feel empathy for one another when we are in pain.

  19. Mark Davenport Says:

    I’m encouraged that everyone who’s commented on the “human shelters” has shown a degree of compassion for victims that I had feared the wording of #4 had overlooked. A problem with legalese is that it is often interpreted in a “just read the black parts” fashion, which was the motivation for the famous quotation attributed to the character of Mr. Bumble in Charles Dickens’ “Oliver Twist”: The law, sir, is a ass, a idiot.

    Thank you all for responding.

  20. Enric Carbó Says:

    Translation into catalan is ready!
    See it http://masculinitat.blogspot.com/2010/10/manifest-pels-drets-dels-homes.html

  21. Pelle Billing Says:

    Looks good, Enric!

  22. Troll King Says:

    Feel free to repost this list on your own blog (with a link back to this page), and also feel free to add explanations after the list

    Will do, bwahahahaha.

  23. Roger Says:

    Great manifesto, I have some objections and suggestions about #4 though:

    As pointed out there might be problems with multi-sex shelters. I would suggest the following sollution instead;

    That all shelters should be under direct control of the government and not be allowed to be run by volunteerorganisations. This because its an important issue that deserves professional treatment, and so many of the issues with women shelters today would be avoided.
    The government should be dutybound to carter to both sexes (but not necessarily at the same facility) and be aware to not become to heteronormative in regards to domestiv violence, it should be transparent and have some controlmechanism installed so that many of the issues of women shelters today wont reproduce.

  24. hopeless_case Says:

    > That all shelters should be under direct control of the government and not be allowed to be run by volunteerorganisations

    I think that would only politicize the issues even more. How is ‘let the government run it’ a solution in this case?

    Do you think that government employees are somehow more enlightened than private volunteers as a general rule? What gave you that idea?

  25. Pelle Billing Says:

    @hopeless_case

    “Do you think that government employees are somehow more enlightened than private volunteers as a general rule?”

    Not at all. But perhaps a general set of government rules about conduct, professionalism and necessary previous training could raise the standard at the shelter? I would guess that is Roger’s point. Though I would like to add that in general Swedes are far too trusting of the government, and in many other countries people are far too suspicious ;)

  26. Roger Says:

    Hopeless:

    What I believe is that professionals are better at what they do than volunteers. Volunteers at women shelters today are far from professionals, even though they often claim they are, they are simply idealists.
    In a swedish context it is also a given that if under governmental control there will be increased transparency, there will be standards that must be kept, the staff can not be choosen by their political beliefs, instead every position will be exposed to competition, and if anyone mismanage their duties they will have to suffer the consequence and be let off.

    Edit:
    Oh, and one more important point: they can no longer be used for feministic ideology production; all stats and facts will have to be accounted for.
    And the laws would have to be kept. We have had several cases in sweden where the women shelters unlawfully have helpt hiding children from their fathers.

  27. Jim Says:

    “Swedes are far too trusting of the government, and in many other countries people are far too suspicious ”

    The government is just the front man for the society we live in. If we live in a society made up of disparate communities with differing cultures and values, distrust is to be expected. It’s huge progress, considering human history, just not to be butchering each other. Trust comes later. It’s an issue to work on, not wish away.

  28. Janes Barrow Says:

    Hi Pelle

    I agree with David’s comment – this is a seminal post. Outstanding.

    I know of noone else putting these thoughts and words out there, and certainly not so clearly and convincingly as you do. You are doing us all a wonderful service.

    If there is anyway I can be of help please let me know.

    James Barrow, UK.

  29. Pelle Billing Says:

    Thank you James, those words mean a lot to me. Good to know of your interest in these matters, I’ll keep that in mind.

  30. hopeless_case Says:

    Roger:

    What I believe is that professionals are better at what they do than volunteers.

    I don’t think that holds up as a general rule. I would counter with “someone whose budget is not guaranteed does a better job than someone whose budget is.”

    Volunteers at women shelters today are far from professionals, even though they often claim they are, they are simply idealists.

    I think you are more likely to find idealists on the government payroll, than on the payroll of a company or organization that has to persuade people to fund it, lacking the power to tax.

    In a swedish context it is also a given that if under governmental control there will be increased transparency, there will be standards that must be kept, the staff can not be choosen by their political beliefs, instead every position will be exposed to competition, and if anyone mismanage their duties they will have to suffer the consequence and be let off.

    You are saying that companies are less likely to let someone go for incompetence than the government is? Really?

  31. Roger Says:

    “I don’t think that holds up as a general rule. I would counter with “someone whose budget is not guaranteed does a better job than someone whose budget is.””

    The budget is guaranteed already by governmental support, its 100% financed by taxmeans in sweden, but run by feministic idealists. But even if it wasnt funded by the state, the quality of their work is not synonymous with the workhours they put in, but with the quality of their methods, the theories they base their work on, their ability to be pragmatic rather than idealistic and their competence in general.

    “I think you are more likely to find idealists on the government payroll, than on the payroll of a company or organization that has to persuade people to fund it, lacking the power to tax.”

    In sweden atleast, they do not need to persuade people to fund it, it is already sponsored by the government. Additionally, your argument actually strengthens mine since the vast majority of the volunteers on the womens shelters in sweden to day do not get paid for their work.

    “You are saying that companies are less likely to let someone go for incompetence than the government is? Really?”

    No im saying that idealist organisations are. Im also saying that their criterion for “competence” is skewed towards the idealist goals of the organisation; not in the objective sense it would have in a governmental context, in a volunteer organisation there are no transparence, and no mechanism for holding people accountable for their actions or to meet objective criterions of quality. They are volunteers after all, they are “doing their best”, nothing more are asked of them.

    I understand we have a clash of cultures here, there is a widespread distrust in the government in the US wich is not analogues with Swedish society.

  32. CTS Says:

    I agree with pretty much all of it. Well done!

  33. Marianne Says:

    well; I saw the above discussed video/manifesto for the first time yesterday and loved it!! I’m kind of shocked at how you guys are trashing it. Don’t you think that after thousands of years of women being oppressed and barely considered human that the way to begin re-establishing the balance, is by doing and saying just what they did?? I think so. This is the looong never ending problem; if you hurt someone, you can NOT go on until an apology and deep understanding of the pain has been recognized. And violence against women is still a daily occurrence..

  34. hopeless_case Says:

    Marianne:

    I think you wrote your comment in the wrong thread.

    Don’t you think that after thousands of years of women being oppressed and barely considered human

    How do you figure? Is seems to me that women are the only oppressed class in all of history whose oppressors went out into the fields and worked for them.

  35. Marianne Says:

    eum… newsflash; since when have women not worked? or do you consider everything women traditionally have done (and btw they have been working in fields as well) has not been work?

  36. hopeless_case Says:

    You are putting words in my mouth to construct a straw man you can respond to. I didn’t say women didn’t work.

  37. Marianne Says:

    no I’

    No I’m not. You are trying to get away with BS using fancy terms. What you said was not only pathetic but and implied something false. You said women were the only oppressed class whose oppressors went out and worked for them. How absurd. Do you actually think women haven’t been oppressed because men have worked. ANd yes, you most definitely suggested women didn’t work cause men worked “for them.” So is cooking for men, and taking care of children that are also the men’s not doing work “for them”?

    what the hell is wrong with you. Read a history book!!!!!!!

  38. Pelle Billing Says:

    Marianne,

    You are confusing individuals with collectives. An individual can be held responsible for what he or she has done, but an individual cannot be held responsible for what other people have done.

    And where do you draw the line? Is every single man responsible for what every other man has ever done? Does that mean that when a man robs a bank in another continent, then I am personally responsible? How can I even influence his decision??

    Are you responsble for everything that women have ever done? Are you responsible for what everyone in your nation has ever done? Are you responsible for everything that your ancestors ever did? Where do you draw the line Marianne? Exactly what do you have to apologize for?

    Because please don’t tell me that you’ve singled out men as the only collective that needs to apologize. That just seems a little too convenient.

    Also, if you use words such as “pathetic” then you will be banned from posting here, so stop doing that.

    There’s a difference between feeling the hurt that exists in this world and having empathy for victims, and assuming responsibility for what the perpetrator did. The former is healthy, and something I gladly do; the latter, however, is unhealthy and quite frankly – insincere.

  39. Marianne Says:

    I responded to above posting saying “women are the only oppressed class in all of history whose oppressors went out into the fields and worked for them” in response to the need for a collective acknowledgement of what’s been and is being done to them. And you defend him and attack me? wow…

    Good luck with your “men’s right manifesto”

  40. hopeless_case Says:

    Marianne:

    In response to the need for a collective acknowledgement of what’s been and is being done to them

    How do you figure that “what’s been done” to women throughout history is any worse than “what’s been done” to men throughout history?

    My read of history is that men were expected to do heavy farm work and to take on most of the physical risks of defending a society or expanding its borders. Women were expected to work around the house and raise children. Neither of those roles sounds like a picnic to me, and the male/female roles certainly don’t sound as much like master/slave oppression to me as they do like a partnership. Hence the ‘go out in the fields and work for them’ part of my original response. I was pointing out that the men were gathering resources for the sake of their families.

    If the historical role was master/slave as you allude, then the women would have done the heavy work and taken on the risk of life and limb while the men occupied roles of comfort and safety (I’m not saying the historical role of women was one of comfort; I’m saying that slave masters typically live lives of comfort).

    The historical risk of life and limb can be quantified, BTW. Genetic studies have confirmed that modern people have twice as many female ancestors as male ones (80% of women had at least one child, while only 40% of men managed to).

    I don’t think the average man should apologize for their role (that of provider and protector, for which they have paid dearly). If anything, history’s men should be applauded, as should history’s women, for building the world we now inhabit.

    good luck with your “men’s rights manifesto”

    Thank you. The MRM has made tremendous gains in the last 2 years. Women who falsely accuse men of rape are starting to get prison sentences finally, and male victims of domestic violence are being recognized and resources are starting to be allocated for them, just to name 2 examples.

    The MRM didn’t achieve those gains by collectively apologizing, but by loudly questioning men’s assigned roles as disposable economic units, just as the women’s rights movement refused to continue accept the role of being limited to child rearing and being shut out of education and industry.

  41. Marianne Says:

    yeah, I know this is how you view history and that is exactly what is so profoundly disturbing. First of all; to look at our traditional different “chores” as “no picnic” is immature to say the least. I have no problem neither working, cooking, or raising my kids (which I LOVED). Second, do you not know the history of the place of women in society of having no political say or rights, or do you just pretend not to know it? And do you not know about all the violence committed towards women throughout history and now, or do you just pretend not to know it? And who have written history? Who made all the church rules? who started all the wars? Your denial and twisting of the world wide recognized oppression of women by men is baffling.

  42. hopeless_case Says:

    Marianne:

    Second, do you not know the history of the place of women in society of having no political say or rights, or do you just pretend not to know it?

    Do you imagine that the average male peasant, thoughout history, had any more say in politics than the average woman? Or, when you read about a historical figure like Napoleon, do you imagine he represents the average man?

    If anything, the leadership of men like Napoleon did much less for the average man (who was likely to be drafted into his army and sent to die under harsh conditions), than for the average woman (who at least wasn’t sent off to die, although likely lost her husband in war).

    By the way, you do realize that men are more often the target of violence than women are, don’t you?

  43. Marianne Says:

    and how do you calculate that? by counting in wars? that men have and are starting? or violence caused my other men. It is hardly by any stretch of the imagination violence caused to men by women. Is it?

    This is a fact; men have ruled in society on all levels; in the home, in church, in politics, in writing history, you name it. It is men. If you cannot see what clearly recognized worldwide re: this issue, maybe you indeed are a “hopeless case”. You want to work for equality and justice, I suggest you stop insulting the physically “weaker” sex who has for this reason, and the reason of being pregnant and raising children, had a backseat in what has been said and decided in the state of affairs of the world throughout history except for minor exceptions, up until the last hundred years. You know what women want? They want a REAL man. And a real man would not in any way shape or form deny what’s been done to them, or have it minimized. He’d stand up and say; this is wrong, what can I do to make this better? and he would listen to what she said and work to change that. He would BE the change. End of story.

  44. Pat Kibbon Says:

    Marianne Says:
    April 6th, 2011 at 1:40 am

    …wars? that men have and are starting?

    “Men” do not start wars. “Nations” start wars – nations that are populated by both men and women. Men bear the burden and responsibility of fighting in wars.

    …the physically “weaker” sex who has for this reason, and the reason of being pregnant and raising children, had a backseat…

    If being “weaker” and pregnant is enough to keep you in the “backseat”, then wouldn’t you still be confined to the backseat?

    …had a backseat in what has been said and decided…

    Who has more influence over the direction of the vehicle, the chauffeur behind the wheel or the passenger in the “backseat?”
    =

  45. hopeless case Says:

    Marianne:

    and how do you calculate that? by counting in wars? that men have and are starting? or violence caused my other men. It is hardly by any stretch of the imagination violence caused to men by women. Is it?

    Interesting that you have no calculations of your own to offer, yet you are convinced that women suffer more violence than men, both today and through history.

    Here is a data table from the FBI’s crime statistics for 2009 on murder victim stats:
    http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_01.html

    There were 10426 men murdered and 3122 women.

    I am contending that a small number of violent men are responsible for most violence, and that men are victimized much more often that women are.

    I am not sure I understand your theory of guilt. You seem to be saying that all men are responsible for the actions of a violent few. So an innocent man that is murdered by a violent man is less of a victim than an innocent woman murdered by that same violent man.

    I think I am beginning to see why you liked the “manifesto for conscious men” so much.

    This is a fact; men have ruled in society on all levels; in the home, in church, in politics, in writing history, you name it.

    For every ruler in history, there were 1000 men and women with no power to speak of. As I pointed out before, the fact that Napoleon was male does no good to the average foot solider in his army, who was worse off than his wife left on the farm.

    I amazed at how people can continually overlook this obvious fact.

    I often hear people complaining about how most of the refugees around the world are women and children. A moment’s reflection would point out what happened to the fathers of those families, yet this is offered as evidence of how downtrodden women are!

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  47. Marianne Says:

    you guys are really really freakiy. Misogony to the extreme. The fact that you can actually be so sickly low as to twist things the way you do is astounding.

    The wars have been started by MEN. Nations have been ruled by MEN. The vilolence statistics you are saying are meaningless cause it is MEN who have violated other MEN, NOT women.

    This is why you are an extreme fringe group. Because you would be laughed at by anyone else. This absurdity is making me sick………….

  48. Pelle Billing Says:

    Marianne,

    Using your own logic, I could also say:

    Civilization has been built by MEN.
    Our infrastructure depends on MEN who risk their lives.
    If there is a natural disaster you will be saved by MEN.

    Using your own logic again, does that mean that women shouldn’t be allowed to use the infrastructure? Meaning that buildings, roads, railways, etc are off-limits to women?

  49. Marianne Says:

    ?? do you only have half a brain? or are you sleep walking? or on drugs? Ask anyone, ANYONE, about the history of women and get a reality check. how many women have been presidents, how many have been in ANY kind of position for decision making until just recently in history. Do you know that women still aren’t allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia? how many women gets abused by their men every single day? How many times have you been attacked by a women?? answer me that one PLEASE.

  50. hopeless case Says:

    Marianne:

    Ask anyone, ANYONE, about the history of women and get a reality check.

    I have been asking you about the history of women, but you have no analysis to offer beyond telling me to ask someone else.

    Do you know that women still aren’t allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia?

    Do you know that in the U.S., the family courts have so little respect for the rights of fathers, that 1/3 of children are raised without fathers? And that rape cases routinely go to trial with no evidence beyond a woman’s word (no corroborating evidence of any kind), which is unheard of in other crimes? More bizarre still, even when it is proven that a woman made a false accusation up, they are very rarely punished for having tried to send an innocent man to prison for years?

    How many times have you been attacked by a women??

    How many times have you been defended (soliders, police, firemen, paramedics, …) by a woman?

  51. Marianne Says:

    I think you are from another planet and needs to be updated on what has happened here the last few millennia. For real…

    To answer your questions: no, I have never been defended by a soldier. and yes, I have been rescued by a women. When I nearly died many years ago a physicians assistant (women) saved my life on the scene where i was dying. In case you haven’t noticed, women can now become doctors, and paramedics. But not until just recently. And re: war; you really are absurd. First of all, MEN have started wars. This I have repeated a hundred times. Second, no women are not sent out to war, cause they are physically weaker, they have babies, and periods. But maybe you don’t know this? I am personally against war, unless it’s for a humanitarian reason to stop some massive genocide/bloodshed. But yeah, you should talk to your fellow men a’la Cheney and whatever generals are in charge about that stuff. So for you to even pull that in as a way to see your self as a victim is pretty crazy to say the least. we’re not even talking about what men and women do. We are talking about one group oppressing another. Women are not oppressing men cause they go to war. Women never ordered or asked men to go to war. Whatever different things, jobs, tasks we have in life, that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about one group systematically considering another group to have less value. You asked me questions back but didn’t even answer what I asked you. So I am asking again; how many times have you been physically attacked by a woman??

    I am sure there are unfair things going on in court systems and elsewhere re: fathers. I don’t doubt that for a second. But take that and multiply it by a hundred, and that is the womans experience. Do you know that women didn’t get to even vote until the 20th century? They weren’t even considered fully people. For every good man who wants to raise his kids there are ten who don’t and just take off. That is an epidemic in case you haven’t noticed. Well, I know you haven’t noticed. You are all into you.

    who the hell likes to play victim here? you. You sound like a winy kid. A winy spoiled kid. It is for sure legitmate to talk about fathers rights and problems where fathers get the short end of the stick. When that occurs I am with you a hundred %. But NOT at the expense of denying what has and is being done to women, which is all you do.

  52. Marianne Says:

    PS. men’s work, whether being a soldier, fireman, chimney sweeper, has (and is) always been valued. A woman’s work, NOT so. Women’s work at home is and has not been valued. And even now when women have started to enter the “workforce” they still struggle and are not paid the same for the same job. And they are still expected to do that work AND the work at home. Are there exceptions? of course. but this is the general state of affairs. And we’re only talking today and the US.

  53. hopeless case Says:

    Marianne:

    no, I have never been defended by a soldier.

    Wow. Talk about ungrateful. You took me to mean did a soldier or policeman ever stop an attack against you in your presence, and missed the larger, and quite obvious question.

    Assuming you live in the U.S., countless men gave their lives as soldiers so you could live in peace there. And were it not for the daily risks taken by policemen, the peace would not last long.

    First of all, MEN have started wars.

    I have noticed you using this logic quite a bit. You point out that most of the violence is committed by men, and neglect to notice that it is a small percentage of men (the vast majority of men are non-violent), then you hold men as a group responsible for the actions of those violent few.

    Tell me, are you aware of the fact the black men are more likely to commit a violent crime than white men? Do you hold the average black man is less esteem because of that?

    If not, then I am curious as to why not, since it is the same logic.

  54. Pat Kibbon Says:

    Marianne Says:
    April 7th, 2011 at 8:10 pm

    …men’s work …. has …. always been valued. A woman’s work, NOT so.

    Your use of the passive voice is curious. It obscures the fact that where something is valued there is a valuer – an actor who performs the act of valuing.
    Who assigns the relative value to men’s and women’s activities? What is their basis for determining that value? How did they reach a position from which they are able to dictate to others what value something has?

    We are talking about one group oppressing another.

    How did the one group reach a position from which it was able to impose its will upon the other?

    Marianne Says:
    April 7th, 2011 at 8:29 pm

    We are talking about one group systematically considering another group to have less value.

    How did the one group reach a position from which it was able to impose its value system upon the other?

    Marianne Says:
    April 7th, 2011 at 8:10 pm

    women …. are physically weaker, they have babies, and periods.

    Is this the ultimate cause of the burdens that you have described women as bearing? If so, then wouldn’t the way to alleviate those burdens be for women to become physically stronger and stop having babies and periods?

    Are men more violent than women, or are they just better at it?

    …how many times have you been physically attacked by a woman??

    I know this question was not addressed to me, but I have been attacked by women plenty of times. How many times have you been physically attacked by a man?

    …MEN have started wars. This I have repeated a hundred times.

    Maybe if you say it one more time it will magically become true.

    …to see your self as a victim is pretty crazy to say the least.

    I don’t see myself as a victim. I don’t see you as a victim either.
    =

  55. Marianne Says:

    have you all been eating crazy pills? Being here I think is probably how it feels being in hell,, surrounded by complete insanity and lies.

    The larger picture Pelle? first of all, I feel very sorry for those who go out and die in war. When they go for a good cause they are heroes. When they go for oil as in Iraq they are duped and I’d say pretty much murdered by their leaders who sent them there. During the time I have spent in the US though, no, I have not been protected by any soldier which is what you asked. And yeah, I’m looking at the bigger picture. I did that the first time you asked.

    Do I hold the black men in less esteem? I’m glad you brought that up. Systematic abuse by making black men slaves and all the evils that followed it is a direct cause of the problems you see today. But knowing you guys here you don’t really see any connections with anything, or any suppression of anything. you probably deny that things like the slave trade and the holocaust happened. with your logic….. eum; lack of logic, or connection to reality.

    and Pat; the things you say are really really sick. The only thing I can say to you is that the many times you may have been physically attacked by a woman, I can easily understand. You can’t spew out that much hatred and not expect to get it back.

    I am guessing you guys are freaking out because you are loosing your status of being in control, slowly but surely, which is why you’re on this witch hunt and determination to take women down. I can’t find any other explanation for being in such complete denial of history and facts. well; maybe your just dumb?

    Good luck in continuing to un-attract women.

  56. Pelle Billing Says:

    Marianne,

    I’ve had enough of your insults and personal attacks. You have to adhere to the same rules and civility as everyone else, and since you cannot, you have been banned.

    If you learn some manners in the future, then you can apply to me to rejoin the discussion.

  57. YIdothis Says:

    May I copy this to my blog?

  58. Pelle Billing Says:

    Yes.

  59. keith Says:

    To say that “men start or cause wars” is no representation of logic or ration. It is simply a statement of accusation. In a similar context it would seem plausible to say “I am a man and therefore must go to or cause a war.” History does not support this. One does not equal the other. However in the same context one could say that it is men who end all wars. For this I am thankful to men. Of course this oversight by most feminists is automatic since it does not support their efforts at misandry. It is a poor intellectual rigor that seeks the lowest denominator of outcome.

    The choice to invade Afghanistan and Iraq was based on public opinion primarily. It is women exercising their votes that have sent these men to their deaths, without an equal representation for the outcome. It is an insult to women to have gained the vote and feign responsibility for exercising it. Woman-up little girls embrace your equality. (if you can)

  60. keith Says:

    @ Pelle

    Loved your articles at MND. I have found you again and enjoying your work.

  61. Pelle Billing Says:

    Thanks keith!

  62. E.L.M Says:

    @ Marianne

    I find your comments childish at best. To emphasize the well established problems that women have faced throughout history, while failing to even acknowledge the problems faced by men is not only quite reprehensible, but also misleading and one-sided. Might I point out that your saying “have you all been eating crazy pills?” is not only a clearly personal attack (which to me, seems reflect a disrespect to the other members of this discussion), but also (again) childish and ignorant.

    God knows what the world is coming to, seeing false movements (i.e, the feminists, or at least radical feminists) abuse there well established and influential hold on our communities.

  63. E.L.M Says:

    On second thought, and in light of other posts which I failed to notice, I actually believe it would nothing short of fruitless to engage in such conversation (possibly even counter-productive). I’ll call ‘em as I see ‘em, and I’ve made my call here.

  64. Pelle Billing Says:

    E.L.M.

    I banned Marianne from this blog due to her behavior. So your call is similar to mine.

  65. E.L.M Says:

    Pete
    I’m rather new to the Men’s Rights Issue, but I’ve still managed to notice how biased some of the system is. I recently made a point of (just to get a feminist perspective) reading an article on a feminist website (about “women’s views on Men’s rights of course) and commenting with a *neutral* PoV, merely questioning the basis for some of their radical beliefs. And would you believe that in a mere half-hour of my post, I found the discussion closed. ‘

    E.L.M

  66. Sheldon Says:

    Here’s the best manifesto written for men so far: http://goo.gl/obiC

  67. Pelle Billing Says:

    Sheldon,

    For some reason you erased your first comment:

    “This is a retarded manifesto for many reason. Most men are not okay with an emasculated agenda like this. You need to pull your heads out of your asses and stop acting like chicks if you expect to get anywhere: http://goo.gl/TUiN

    Can you please explain why this manifesto is retarded and emasculated?

  68. Human-Stupidity.com Says:

    Nice manifesto. Short, concise. See an attempt of mine at the same topic

    Radical masculist manifesto: on equal terms with radical feminists. Feminists not only demand, but actually receive special special legal privileges in courts of law. We need radical masculists who, like radical feminists, are not shy to make preposterous demands. See list of preposterous demands!

  69. Tanya Says:

    I have been reading some of the comments about mens rights and women and feminists.Marianne must be new to a site like this.Its a shame you have banned her.Yes she was abusive.Thats why I know she was new.Do you chuck everybody off the site that disagrees with something you believe in?
    Most women do have the choice to not or to have children.It is not a bad idea not to have them I agree.Women could do so much more without being pregnant,breastfeeding and child rearing.They could also have an operation so they no longer endure menstruation.All mens problems will cease over time forthwith.No unwanted pregnancies,no child support,women performing work that men some men on this site dont want to do any more(soldiers,other dangerous jobs and so on).In the end no one will have anything at all to complain about.Brilliant!!!
    Do you agree? Or do I get kicked off?If you dont want women on your site just say so.What is the problem?

  70. Tanya Says:

    Also.
    Women do participate in active combat and have for thousands of years.

    At present NewZealand,Australia,Canada,Italy,France,Israel,Finland,Norway,Denmark,Sweden,Germany & Switzerland have women in combat roles.Other countries have also to some extent.
    As you are aware Women & Men do not compete side by side in the Olympics and other international games.This must be because men are stronger physically than women.Do you think this may be why some countries do not put women in combat roles?
    I have just picked on two of the subjects on the Mens Rights Manifesto for now.I agree with many of them.Some are in denial of the fact that men and women are fundamentally different.It is the difference that we should enjoy and celebrate every day in my belief.
    I do believe a DNA test is a man right when a child is involved.Every child has a right to know who his or her parents are.However I have a family member who has a doubt about his youngest child and does not want to know ever.The child may not really want to know either.

  71. Pelle Billing Says:

    Tanya:

    “Marianne must be new to a site like this.Its a shame you have banned her.Yes she was abusive.Thats why I know she was new.Do you chuck everybody off the site that disagrees with something you believe in?”

    Nope. Only the abusive ones.


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