Misandry in the Media – part 7

July 19th, 2011 by Pelle Billing

Take a look at this Youtube clip, starting at 4:48:

Now imagine if a group of men, with a male audience, had talked and joked this way after the mutilation of a woman. Would it have been OK for the men to find it hysterically funny that a man had cut out a woman’s vagina?

This – ladies and gentlemen – is a prime example of why the fight against misandry has just started. It took decades to root out misogyny from modern societies, and we’re only getting started with misandry.

62 Responses to “Misandry in the Media – part 7”

  1. Alver Says:

    I don’t have to imagine “a group of men, with a male audience, had talked and joked this way after the mutilation of a woman.” It has been done for centuries. And, in a metaphorical way we still do it today. To say that we as men don’t, would be naive.

    As a gender we sit around chopin’ it up talkin’ ’bout “bitches and hoes”. We laugh and joke at the misfortune of woman who has been slapped, bruised, or given a black eye citing that they must have done something to deserve it. If we were to be honest with ourselves, most of the time an event like that starts with something as simple as a woman trying to express hurt feelings and we don’t want to hear it. We just want them to stop running their mouths. Often times, as men, we feel it is our rite to make that happen.

    So, it is no small wonder that we are now seeing a mirror image of our own terrible behavior. Yes, you have every reason to be upset, as much as any woman has had. You now sit where they have sat, insulting and maddening isn’t it?

    Misogyny has in no way been “rooted out” of modern society. The underlying tone is still here. The outward physical manifestation of it is better under control, but the attitude isn’t. All we have done is tell men “No, this sort of behavior is not acceptable and there will be consequences if you get caught.” What we haven’t done is re-educate them…so really, nothing has changed. Just because you do not associate yourself with this behavior or school of thought doesn’t mean that it is not widely practiced by the majority of American male society.

    Be insulted, be indignant, be angry, hurt, and outraged by women thinking that a man having his penis cut off is funny. Then start fixing their attitude by apologizing for starting it. Admit that it is not fair we have had centuries to be asses while women have only had a couple of decades to retaliate. Women have a greater capacity to forgive trespasses than me do. The will more readily forgive and move on. But there has to be a genuine apology for wrong doing in the first place or it is just received as superficial and the war rages on.

    Yup, we are going to have to take one for the team guys if we are going to see change. We started it and we can finish it…the right way. It sucks and our Ego’s aren’t real happy with the idea, especially if we are one of the few that count ourselves as enlightened.

    But how enlightened and mature are you really if you are playing tit for tat, pointing fingers, and not willing to swallow a little pride for the greater good. Misandry will come to a much faster conclusion than misogyny if men handle the healing process better than we handled our immaturity.

    And I wouldn’t insinuate that my response is emasculating in any way because I am ALL about the masculine and not always in the healthiest way…which is why I know what I am talking about. I am one of those men who is still willing to take it to the streets just because I still feel like a modern day Cowboy.

    Love and Light

    Alver

  2. Pelle Billing Says:

    Alver,

    Misogyny has been rooted out in the media, in politics and in any public context. Misandry has not. It’s as simple as that.

  3. Alver Says:

    Pelle,

    Thanks for clearing that up. My take on the way you were using it was that misogyny has been addressed and resolved. From your response you only mean that it has been exposed.

    I am curious about how you feel we should resolve it.

  4. James Barrow Says:

    Hi Alver

    Some of your points I like and agree with, some of your points I completely disagree with and cannot relate to at all, and one of them still challenges me in an interesting way.
    ……….

    I agree that misogyny has not been rooted out of modern society, in the sense that it has been eliminated, and that it is in fact naive to think that it has. However it is also naive or disingenuous to suggest that there has been no progress made in this area. The process of education has at least started, and one of the ways this education happens is for media to show how unacceptable it is. Which is why in modern societies you won’t see a daytime tv chat show with an audience laughing at a woman being mutilated.

    I also agree with this: “Yes, you have every reason to be upset, as much as any woman has had. You now sit where they have sat, insulting and maddening isn’t it?” I think this is a valid and helpful perspective to take. I found it personally helpful because I was maddened and insulted watching this programme, so thanks for that.

    ….

    I know this is a forum and you don’t have time to write a full essay or something, but I still think some of your comments used huge sweeping generalisations and oversimplifications that undermine your other points. For example, saying that as a gender we laugh and joke at the misfortune of a woman who has been slapped, bruised…that we have a right (rite?) to shut a woman up when she’s trying to express her feelings WTF? Don’t you f**in dare include me in such a category. To lump all good men in with that kind of generalisation is ludicrously oversimplistic.

    Similarly, this statement, “Women have a greater capacity to forgive trespasses than me do. The will more readily forgive and move on is again such an oversimplification.” Again, such a huge generalisation…. In my own personal experience the opposite has been the case.

    …..

    I agree with you pointing out the futility of the tit for tat approach. However, I think without realising it you may be supporting this when you seem to be suggesting that men were bastards to women so now we just gotta let women be bitches back to men in order to redress the balance. At least that is how I read this: “Admit that it is not fair we have had centuries to be asses while women have only had a couple of decades to retaliate.”

    Also, digging a bit deeper, I think this over simplification points to something that Pelle has highlighted elsewhere, that you and I and much of modern society have swallowed hook line and sinker the overarching and flawed feminist spin that “all men have historically been bastards towards all women” That Women have been oppressed and Men have been the oppressors. Well, f**k that as a helpful or accurate worldview. Have some men oppressed women? Of course they have. Have all men done so? Of course not.

    Let me give you 2 example from my own life: I used to teach English in Japan in the 1980s when the society was still only beginning the process of developing an awareness of “sexism”. To Western eyes it was (still is?) such a sexist country with the women being expected to follow the men’s lead and the men being in control. I remember having that simplistic understanding overturned by a conversation class with 4 middle aged housewives discussing the issue of overworked “salarymen”. When I suggested that they had it tough being in such a male dominated society they all looked at me stupid and laughed – they said “who do you think is paying for these English lessons? After this we’re all going out to our favourite coffee shop and then we’re off shopping together, while our husbands are raising their blood pressure working overtime”. One said that she didn’t mind him working overtime because it means that she didn’t have to spend so much time with him. Again much laughter at this. So who was being oppressed by their gender roles here?

    Another example: My father was a 6ft 2in rugby playing coal miner from south wales in the UK who liked to spend time with his friends in the pub, so he ticked the caricature boxes of being just the kind of guy that feminist ideology likes to take a snipe at. Here’s how he lived his life – aswell as helping to bring up 3 boys while working down the mine, he then later brought on a mild heart attack in his 40′s by doing overtime at a power station because my mother had persuaded him to get us a bigger house and now, after busting a gut to renovate it, he now had to pay for the mortgage. Prior to this he visited his ailing mother in hospital almost everynight for a period of 7 years, then he cared for my mother at home when she got cancer. In all of this caring for others and working hard he retained a sense of humour, fairness, he self-educated himself in other fields and was a fantastic grandad. I know of 2 occasions where my mother attacked him – once by throwing a plate at him, the other throwing an electric iron at him (both missed). Apparently this was put down to women being over-emotional or something….When he was nursing her as she was dying of cancer she slapped him in the face. My mother on the other hand got to open the corner shop that she wanted to, then work part time or not at all for many years and developed a slight drinking problem which my father helped her to overcome, but she still got to spend many years at home watching tv or on the sun-bed drinking sherry while he was at the power station. Please tell me who was oppressed in this scenario? Whose life was made harder by society’s expectations on them?

    One more example – do you watch Deadliest Catch? The men often fit the bill of macho dunderheads, right? Have you ever wondered about the wives at home waiting for their husbands to bring home the money, often acting as their accountants, while these guys risk their lives for their families and each other? Who is most oppressed by their gender roles here?

    The reason I bring up all these examples is just to show how unsubtle and inaccurate this feminist worldview actually is. And that doesn’t mean that I believe some women are not being oppressed by some men right now in the majority of countries in the world. They are – just look on youtube for videos on stonings in Kurdistan for example. But we can do much better than to take a huge cultural or planet-wide brush and tar everyone with it.

    ….

    At the same time, I also believe there is something in the feminist argument that the level or degree of oppression that women have suffered historically is so much greater than that of men’s suffering that the two are not comparable…..I’m not sure where I stand on that.

    …..

    I certainly wouldn’t insinuate that your response is emasculating – I have seen such kinds of responses online recently when someone makes a similar point to yours and it simply sends the discussion off in a fruitless direction. What exactly do you mean when you say you are one of those men who is “still willing to take it to the streets” – I’m not sure what that phrase means here.

    …..

    Lastly, I am unsure about my own response to your central point – that the best way to get past misandry is for men to give a heartfelt apology to women. This seems to me to be the crux of the whole issue re. the Manifesto for Conscious Men. What do others think about this? I have never regarded women as inferior – it’s preposterous to me. I have personally never knowingly hurt or attacked a woman in anyway, certainly not physically, and I cannot in any way relate to your description of men collectively justifying a woman being “given a black eye citing that they must have done something to deserve it.” (again, wtf?!). When I look at overtly misanthropic aspects of our culture my own reaction is revulsion. And so I feel no compunction, on the grounds of simply being a man, to apologise for anything. I do not feel guilty. Does my response indicate the lack of a healthy sense of cultural collectivity? Or is it simply that I am denying the degree of male on female violence, both historically and currently? Or is it that I refuse to accept a flawed feminist world view, especially if it is used to justify such things as publicly laughing at the criminal mutilation a fellow human being who happens to be male?

    I missed the discussions on this at the recent big online men’s conference, so I’d welcome others thoughts on the “argument for an apology”.

    ….

    In any case, thanks Alver, you got my blood up and my head thinking!

    Cheers

    James

  5. Pelle Billing Says:

    Alver,

    “Thanks for clearing that up. My take on the way you were using it was that misogyny has been addressed and resolved. From your response you only mean that it has been exposed.

    I am curious about how you feel we should resolve it?”

    Your question doesn’t make much sense to me. First we need to expose misandry in the media, in politics and in all public settings – just like misogyny has been exposed.

    Once we have done that we can discuss resolving both issues. However, my belief is that once something has been deemed unacceptable in public, that kind of clear norm will tend to trickle down to people in general.

  6. Pelle Billing Says:

    James,

    Amazing comment! Thank you so much for sharing those snapshots from your own life.

  7. Janes Barrow Says:

    Thanks Pelle

    I’ve just re-read the comments on your previous thread about The Manifesto… I find your arguments compelling here:

    “Am I responsible for what every white person has ever done? Am I responsible for what every Swedish person has ever done?
    And what about class? Are poor people responsible for what other poor people do?

    Why do you suggest collective guilt based on gender, when you do not suggest it for other categories?”

    To me this dispels any remaining doubts I might have had about the merits of the collective responsibility argument.

    …..

    However, I am still left believing there is something to FS Mcarthur’s comments on the other thread. For example: “Is it all those female generals who are sending men to die in wars that serve the purposes of a few rich women? What utter nonsense. Men die in wars because other men want them to and for reasons that have everything to do with serving the interests of rich men. Don’t bring women into the equation when they have absolutely nothing to do with decisions to wage war.”

    Or: “The very few examples of women who have wielded power (wow, Cleopatra!) is a form of grasping at straws to attempt to explain some kind of symmetry between men and women in terms of the historical exercise of political and economic and religious power. It is so lame as to be laughable. Please, look at ALL of history, not some tiny slice. What compels you to grab at the small exceptions? What about women drives you to this denial and minimization, not mention fixation on this rewriting of history and reality?

    Of course, women have problems, women commit crimes, women kill. Ok, now that that is established, look at the prevalence of who commits the crimes, the violence, wages the wars, rapes and pillages. Isn’t there something men could spend their time more productively doing than blaming women, trying to turn reality of our violent male culture inside out?

    So, yes, get real, guys. By persisting in such denial and blame, not to mention in incorrect characterizations of what I say, your true attitudes, behaviors, and beliefs about women are showing. And this is not a “people” problem as much as you wish it were. Trying to define it as people is just more denial and minimization.”

    I have deep respect for your opinions Pelle, so can I ask – where do you stand, not on the idea of collective guilt as you have stated your views on this clearly this, but on the view that historically and currently it is men rather than women who are mostly responsible for inflicting suffering on other human beings and the planet? When I look at the world that’s what I see. Maybe my seeing is permeated with a false feminist worldview, but it doesn’t feel like that. (Not that I take on the guilt of what other men do.)

    Do you see ” gender equality” when it comes to causing suffering and destruction?

  8. Alver Says:

    James,

    Hey man, thanks for the thoughtful response. You bring up exactly the points that I have been making recently about why progression in this area might be slower than what it needs to be.

    I would like to compliment your writing style and ability to articulate yourself. I have found that most of the men in these forums seem to be educated and for the most part, articulate…even if it is just self education.

    I’d like to help out with a more grassroots perspective, since, lets face it, that does tend to be the majority, and certainly the majority of problem when it comes to re-educating male ideology.

    ……..

    Yes, I did make generalizations as a springboard for conversations, not so much because of lack of time, but because of the lack of attention span of the average reader. I had to highlight my points in the hopes that there might be deeper discussion later on. So again, thank you for having enough interest and fortitude to want to dig deeper.

    ……..

    I think the most important problem that you address is this one, “as a gender we laugh and joke at the misfortune of a woman who has been slapped, bruised…that we have a right (rite?) to shut a woman up when she’s trying to express her feelings WTF? Don’t you f**in dare include me in such a category. To lump all good men in with that kind of generalisation is ludicrously oversimplification. ”

    When you are standing in line to grab lunch and overhear some women talking about men you don’t hear them saying, “SOME men have bad behavior that they should have to personally experience themselves.” What you hear is, “MEN have bad behavior that they should have to personally experience themselves. It’s a HUGE generalization that unfortunately includes you and me.

    We are in the minority. People will generalize their thoughts and take action based on the majority, right or wrong. It’s not fair. It’s not right, but that is the way it is. This is why I made the comment, “Just because you do not associate yourself with this behavior or school of thought doesn’t mean that it is not widely practiced by the majority of American male society.” Somehow it just gets blown by while the reader takes everything, personally…but that is one of the weaker points of masculine energy. I am guilty of it too.

    What we are fighting is not the minority way of thinking, but the majority. If anyone has fallen out of touch with who the majority is pay attention to the conversations of the people who service your car, work behind the counters, and serve you…pick up any of the “guy” magazines and read the articles, for that matter pick up any of the “chick” magazines and read some articles, or just review the Pelle’s original post.

    Even though there has been progress, even if it is not being done openly, the mockery and abuse of women is still alive and strong behind the “closed doors of the public eye” where there is plausible deny-ability. This is where the roots of the problem feed. Do you disagree?

    Do you remember being a kid? Remember when you were with a group of kids and someone did something really f*&#ed up and the adult came in and ask, “Who did this?” The answer, “Not me. I didn’t do it”. The response, “I don’t care who did it just fix it!!”. It sucked that you didn’t commit the offense then and it sucks that you didn’t commit the crime now. But we still have to fix it.

    As enlightened men we can all sit around pissing and moaning that we “didn’t do it” and feel indignant by being lumped in with the ignorant bunch who consistently give men a bad “name” OR we can accept this as human nature and the reality of the situation. A better response would be to come together and figure out how to CHANGE THE PERCEPTION so that those of us who are genuinely working to personally make a difference for the whole are respected for our efforts. Because, those that feed into Misandry don’t give a f*^k about one whining individual(which can make a person look weaker than they are) trying to make a difference. I am not saying that is my opinion, I am just saying that is the GENERAL opinion.

    …….

    This is a complex concept in this paragraph that bares some comment:

    Similarly, this statement, “Women have a greater capacity to forgive trespasses than me do. The will more readily forgive and move on is again such an oversimplification.” Again, such a huge generalization…. In my own personal experience the opposite has been the case.

    I don’t know how much you know about feminine and masculine energy, but the energies have a profound effect on your above comment. Women, as a gender, have a greater potential to access the benefits of feminine energy, naturally (where as men tend to favor masculine energy). Forgiveness, acceptance, receiving, and patience are all characteristics of feminine energy. As men, if we approach women with these qualities then it allows them to access this energy in a constructive way, usually faster than men in GENERAL.

    In your case, when you have had the “opposite” experience it is because the woman you were dealing with was tapping into and utilizing her masculine energy, not feminine. A lot of that in today’s society is due to women’s attitude of “if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em”.

    Here is something to consider: when you are engaged with a woman, instead of viewing a negative situation as dealing with a hardened bitchy woman, try to figure out which energy you are accessing in her. 9 times out of 10 if her attitude does not help facilitate negotiations she is accessing an overdose of masculine energy qualities (which is not to say that some masculine qualities aren’t helpful in negotiations).

    As a man I am sure you are more aware of your masculine energies while you are working on learning to balance them with the feminine energies to be a more balanced person? You would be a perfect person to help a woman learn how to switch from a masculine based perspective in an argument back to a feminine based perspective…for resolution. Constructive arguing is not about winning(a masculine characteristic) it is about understanding(feminine based, rooted receiving).

    ……

    Addressing this grievance:

    “…you seem to be suggesting that men were bastards to women so now we just gotta let women be bitches back to men in order to redress the balance. At least that is how I read this: “Admit that it is not fair we have had centuries to be asses while women have only had a couple of decades to retaliate.”

    I never said or insinuated that we should allow a woman to be a bitch or disrespect us. If I were to say that I would be a hypocrite because I am the last man that will allow a woman, or a man for that matter, be disrespectful to me. What I said was that it has not been FAIR. That said, it is only to serve as reminder that women have earned the rite to feel raw and they do, understandably so.” Look at YOUR reaction to the way women are treating men, the Misandry. You haven’t been dealing with masculine energy run amuck as long as women have.

    Perspective:

    Your dad asks you to clean the yard all day, for one day, which is going to require heavy and intensive labor all day. By the end of the day, long after the sun has gone down, you are sweaty, dirty, sore and exhausted. You complain to your father. Your father looks at you like, “Boy, you do not know what hard labor is. What I do is twice as hard in worse conditions, year in and year out.”

    Does that make you any less tired, dirty and sore? No. But I bet it gives you a better perspective and respect for what your father has gone through. Maybe it even makes you appreciate the good restful times you have with him and try to cooperate in a way that makes more harmony, for both of you. If you didn’t find the respect (even if you thought he was an asshole, NOT saying you did, just IF) your father deserved for all of his efforts, what kind of tension do you think that might create?

    All I am talking about is perspective…so that we can make a change.

    ……

    Your last issue that men have been oppressed through their responsibilities as men by being primary providers, protectors, and pro-creators…

    I am the first one to agree that women can behave badly, trust me, the first. But men working ourselves to the grindstone while women “play” is an over simplification of deeper respect problem that men historically brought on themselves, at least in America.

    Not only were women NOT allowed in the work force, when we finally did let them in, we severely underpaid them, making it necessary for men to take the lead if they wanted to see any fruits of their labor, enjoy luxuries. Men did that, with our laws, women weren’t even allowed a vote. The argument isn’t that we didn’t contribute substantially to cultural evolution and the establishment of a productive society, it’s HOW we went about it. Women are pissed about the HOW. Now men are pissed about HOW women are expressing their frustration and anger.

    As men, to keep our Egos on top, we didn’t allow for women to help ease our burdens. Now, in retrospect, we’re pissed about it? Also, we didn’t appreciate women for the work they put in on the domestic front. Instead, because of our burdens, we took all they offered as our rite, treating them more like subservient possessions. This is a general statement about past attitudes.

    ……

    Lastly, my comments about being willing to take it (being my morals, ethics, and values) to the streets(willing to physically stand up for my beliefs: think Braveheart or action films where men are still willing to DO something) was for one purpose. It was to illustrate that I am an aggressive male who in no way wants to be confused with being “pussy whipped”, emasculated, shamed, or gay because I agree that the first step in ending this BS between the genders is a GENERAL apology.

    For some reason, the general reaction to a general apology, is that the apology itself aids in the concept of Misandry. Somehow, men are confusing an olive branch with admission that we should be hated and punished and become a lesser version of the male ideal.

    An apology is not necessarily an admonition of individual guilt or any guilt at all. All the events that have lead up to present climate were socially acceptable and agreed upon. So don’t FEEL guilty. Let the men who contributed FEEL guilty. But aid in the cause. Come together for a common resolution. Don’t be divided because you didn’t personally contribute. It dilutes the common goal. Remember our parents saying, “If it doesn’t apply to you then I am not talking to you”? But what ever they had to say was GENERALLY addressed to everyone within ear-shot and the consequences involved everyone.

    Sometimes you can just “apologize for any misunderstandings that may have caused hurt feelings.” Then ask, “how can we fix this”. Two countries that have been waring for centuries understand that at some point no one can be certain how the war started or even why it continues, but someone has to shoulder the burden of the first apology.

    Isn’t that the greatest strength? Wouldn’t that be a prime example of mature masculine energy giving way to a healing feminine energy? Wouldn’t this help bring an end to Misogyny and Misandry?

    ……

    I could go on but I am sure I have already written an essay and lost anyone else’s attention who might have benefited from our conversation…

    I have enjoyed a stimulating discourse…

    Thanks James…

    Alver

  9. Alver Says:

    Janes Barrow,

    I understand what you are saying and felt your comments were well made. It is going to take coming at this concept from a few different angles for men to accept a certain level of responsibility…collectively, not individually…

    Before we can work on the details we have to get a handle on the generalization, even though they share a symbiotic relationship in the final resolution.

    Love and Light

    Alver

  10. David Marshall Says:

    Pelle, thank you for posting about this. I almost wrote you about this a few times and probably would have if you didn’t post about it. The double standard is really appalling.

    It’s also quite remarkable that women with such low moral development could get their own television show. What nonsense.

    James, thank you for those stories and comments. That’s great.

    Alver, I challenge you to find a video of men talking about female mutilation or the like in this way.

  11. Eagle33 Says:

    Alver, I find your comment really triggering. Because I was bullied by both genders, men and boys, girls and women.

    I found support for what the men and boys did to me but no such luck in the latter department. Everytime I try to mention how harmful girls and women can be to boys and men, the best I can get is a simple, half-hearted “uh-huh”. At worse, no one wants to acknowledge it.

    Yet, you come here suggesting that because women have been given worse treatment in the past that it justifies the hurt they dish out?

    So, I should just repent for my sins against girls and women all over in times past because I share the same sex as those who oppressed them? Even though:

    -I had female caregivers and counselors yell at me, berate me, and even physically forced me to do activites properly while undergoing a diagnosis of Autism.

    -Girls actively participating with the boys in pulling my pants down on three occassions. A whole FUCKING MOB OF THEM AT THAT!

    -I had young women in high school calling me “Weirdo” and “Idiot” on a regular basis.

    -I had a high school crush try to grab my pants in an attempt to pull my underwear up in a game of “Show me your underwear” I refused to participate in.

    -I had the same high school crush sick her boyfriend on me and he threatened to “Kick my ass” if I ever spoke to her again after I broke off our friendship thanks to the aforementioned “Show me your underwear” incident.

    -I had a female peer in high school read a short story I was working in my spare time in a mocking voice where she proceeding to tear it out of the printer and wrap it around me, calling me a “Retard”.

    Do you have any idea, Alver, what I go through thanks to these incidents? How much I have to work hard to shift out of those triggers as they occur? Learning there’s no other supports for me out there? No articles on how girls can bully boys? Having to keep myself from losing faith in humanity because they’re always going on talking about violence against women and girls and how boys bully boys, boys bully girls, and girls bully girls and all sorts of shit like that? and even fighting against depressive loops whenever I read stories or watch movies with strong female leads in them that mock or insult the supporting characters?

    And you have the FUCKING AUDACITY to suggest men like me should take it because women received the same treatment and still do? It’s only fair?

    Let me tell you right now, Mister, it’s attitudes like yours that bring me suicidal thoughts at nights. I’m so glad I didn’t read through every paragraph of your little diatribe otherwise I WOULD be having thoughts of suicide.

    You don’t know what it’s like for me on a regular basis so I suggest you think long and hard about what you say in regards to speaking out on abuse against men and boys like me.

    I’m a survivor and won’t be silenced anymore nor be made to feel ashamed of being a man because you have a problem with rampant misogany. So, screw you.

  12. Pelle Billing Says:

    James,

    “I have deep respect for your opinions Pelle, so can I ask – where do you stand, not on the idea of collective guilt as you have stated your views on this clearly this, but on the view that historically and currently it is men rather than women who are mostly responsible for inflicting suffering on other human beings and the planet? When I look at the world that’s what I see. Maybe my seeing is permeated with a false feminist worldview, but it doesn’t feel like that. (Not that I take on the guilt of what other men do.)

    Do you see ” gender equality” when it comes to causing suffering and destruction?”

    This is a very deep question James, and I may return to it later. For now, just a quick rundown of some numbers that may help us get a more objective picture of what’s going on.

    The only numbers I know by heart are Swedish statistics, so I’ll use those. Sweden is a small country, modern, and well organized. So the number are fairly small. But I think we can assume that the numbers have decreased fairly proportionally. Anyhow, here goes.

    On a yearly basis:
    100 murders overall
    16 women are killed by their male spouses.
    4 men are killed by their female spouses.
    80 more murders are committed nationwide, mostly male on male.

    50 men die at their workplace.
    1-5 women die at their workplace.

    Do men cause most of the destruction? Yes. There’s no way around this, however you twist and turn it.

    Men are also the recipients of most of the destructive violence – looking at the murders.

    However, the workplace deaths tell us that men are raised to accept violent, dangerous environments. So is it really any surprise that men dish out most of the violence, when they are expected to cushion most of the violence for society?

    The human experiment has always been about trying to get men to be safe and protective of women, while also doing the dangerous jobs and giving their lives defending the tribe. How do we get men to switch their violence on or off?

    Please do not think that it’s every been possible for men to switch of their violent side permanently (Alver, take note). Society has not wanted this. Women have not wanted this! What society and women have wanted is for men to be tough and violent when doing dangerous jobs, and protecting their country and their family – but to be able to switch that side off when in other settings.

    Yes, men cause most of the destruction. But while people are aware of this very few of them are aware of the dynamics of being male. This goes for both genders.

  13. James Barrow Says:

    Hi Pelle

    Thanks for this info, and for sharing your perspective. I agree completely with this: “What society and women have wanted is for men to be tough and violent when doing dangerous jobs, and protecting their country and their family – but to be able to switch that side off when in other settings.” The more this kind of accurate observation is openly stated, the more progress we will make as a society regarding the issue of male violence.

    I am glad that the statistics back up, and that you agree, that men cause most of the destruction. So that is one thing the feminist movement has been right to flag up. Many people unfamiliar with “the men’s movement” seem to visit sites such as yours and end up interpreting yours and my views as somehow denying the role of men in causing suffering and destruction around the world. An upfront statement like yours here goes someway to getting over that initial hurdle, so that hopefully more fruitful discussion can then take place.

    I also agree with you that very few people are aware of this dynamic of being required to “switch your violence on and off”. This is one of the particularly valuable things your work here is doing – shedding light on this dynamic.

    Thanks again

    James

  14. James Barrow Says:

    Hi Alver

    Great and detailed response – thanks.

    I get your point about making generalisations as springboards for deeper discussions. It’s worked here!

    Thanks also for explaining the “taking it to the streets” comment. I get it.
    ….
    Your discussion on the general apology is actually quite deeply thought out:
    “For some reason, the general reaction to a general apology, is that the apology itself aids in the concept of Misandry. Somehow, men are confusing an olive branch with admission that we should be hated and punished and become a lesser version of the male ideal.
    An apology is not necessarily an admonition of individual guilt or any guilt at all. All the events that have lead up to present climate were socially acceptable and agreed upon. So don’t FEEL guilty. Let the men who contributed FEEL guilty. But aid in the cause. Come together for a common resolution. Don’t be divided because you didn’t personally contribute. It dilutes the common goal.”

    I really like this. You are drawing a distinction between an inappropriate sense of guilt on the one hand, and a willingly taken-on sense of responsibility on the other. Hmm,…

    I remember in a previous online discussion, someone (was it you?) came up with this metaphor: You and your brother go to a private house party. Your brother drinks too much and throws up on the carpet. As you are carrying him out of course you apologise to the owners of the house for your brother’s behaviour. You’re not saying that you threw up but you are still apologising for what your brother did, and it’s the right thing to do. I found that analogy convincing. Allow me to run with it please…

    In this case there is no doubt of the fact that your brother threw up on the carpet, hence no reason not to apologise. However, many feminists still twist much of the data and people like Warren Farrell have gone back over the data more thoroughly to convincingly disprove many of the weaker feminist arguments, e.g the pay gap. As a result, unfortunately, it seems some men are using these examples to say “See, none of us ever really puked on the carpet at all”. And this confusion and denial adds to the reluctance to offer a guilt-free apology.

    Also, many feminists do not share your distinction between offering a willing apology for the sake of the greater good and being guilty. They really think all men are guilty! Again this leads to a reluctance to apologise, because before you apologise for your brother puking you’re going to take the time to explain or argue against the person who is claiming it was you who just threw up.
    (Am I taking the party/carpet analogy too far now, y’think? Allow me a bit more…)

    It actually takes a very strong masculine energy to simultaneously, argue with the mildly hysterical projection of other party goers that it really wasn’t you who puked up, to disprove the false claims that your brother also crapped on the toilet floor, and stay calm and unequivocal and open-hearted enough to still offer a heartfelt apology for what your brother did.

    But it seems that’s what the situation needs. We need to do all of these things at the same time right? We shouldn’t not stand up to false claims, we shouldn’t not resist attempts to impose unwarranted guilt upon us, we shouldn’t refrain from pointing out the possible reasons why he drank too much in the first place, and equally if the evidence is clear we shouldn’t pretend that our brother isn’t puking on someone else’s floor.

    So, if the evidence is clear and, as Pelle and others have agreed, men have caused and do cause more destruction, and since much of this has been and is being directed against women, then for the sake of getting beyond misogyny and misandry, why are we – why am I – not offering a guilt-free apology for what our brothers have done and are doing? That’s the question I am working through at the moment.

    Thanks for the stimulating discussion Alver.

    Any constructive thoughts and comments would be appreciated.

  15. titfortat Says:

    Do you censor comments?

  16. Pelle Billing Says:

    titfortat,

    No, I don’t.

    This site was hacked earlier today and we had to restore it from a two day old backup. I’m sorry that your comment disappeared.

  17. Pelle Billing Says:

    Here’s your comment (from my email notifications):

    titfortat wrote:

    I don’t know how much you know about feminine and masculine energy, but the energies have a profound effect on your above comment. Women, as a gender, have a greater potential to access the benefits of feminine energy, naturally (where as men tend to favor masculine energy). Forgiveness, acceptance, receiving, and patience are all characteristics of feminine energy. As men, if we approach women with these qualities then it allows them to access this energy in a constructive way, usually faster than men in GENERAL(Alver)

    I almost lost my lunch after reading this new age, psychobabble. Really? Like I want this kind of man talking for me. Sorry bud, but I have more forgiveness, acceptance, receiving and patience than my daughters mother. I guess that would make me feminine, I think? You want to say sorry to someone, say it to all the forgiving, accepting, loving men you just insulted. I guess that last line would make me more masculine, I think?

  18. titfortat Says:

    Ok, thanks pelle.

  19. Eagle33 Says:

    My last commment dissappeared as well.

    But I’m still going to say that philosophies like alver preaches, where men have to issue an apolagy for women, accept the harm women like the one in this subject have done as retaliation for having been oppressed, is frankly insulting and counterproductive to my well-being.

    Sorry, Alver. You don’t speak for me.

    I’m taking a break now from the gender debate because the last one I had on “Male Priveledge”, I bore a major trigger episode and it nearly broke my mentality.
    I’ll be taking the time to recover. Wish me luck.

  20. Pelle Billing Says:

    Good luck Eagle33!

    Don’t ever let people tell you what to feel or let them assign some kind of guilt or shame to you. They don’t have that right.

  21. Allan Says:

    I find it so telling when the people supposedly most involved in anti-violence work (broadly i.e. “feminists”, sexual assault advocates, anti-racism, and others), are rather prominent in their self-righteous violence toward others. And indigent if you raise the issue. I just don’t think it will work this way so I’m completely unmoved.

    Alver, I found your comment pretty offensive and typical. If you have something to apologize to someone for, go ahead, but I won’t be shamed and silenced by some class analysis of yours. Drawn into your drama triangle. It’s more of the dynamics of violence.

    I really appreciate Pelle a non-US perspective. It’s hard for me to escape our little fishbowl. It seems to me like violence is the major US export these days.

  22. Roger Says:

    There are diffrent kinds of violence, physical beeing the most thought of, psychological beeing the most harmful.

    When from a point of power demanding of others to beg forgivness for actions they are not responsible for, you are doing violence to those individuals.

    When in the public arena where (in sweden atleast) cultural marxism is hegemoneous, ie support radical feministic ideas of male guilt and men are singled out as the problem-gender with no regards to the equal responisbilty of women, violence is beeing made on all innocent boys and men that have done nothing wrong, at least no more or less than girls and women.

    I find it distasteful and insulting, and a major flaw of feminist-theory, they use theories of male guilt to shield themselves and hide their own guilt.

    The truth is that both genders have been equally involved in creating and upholding the gendersystem of history, both genders have had priviligeous and hardships because of that, and both genders are equally responsible to do something about it today; when the old system is no longer required.

    That is the core of the situation; and while I find that the mens movement for the most part accepts responsibility, the female counterpart do not; and that is where we are stuck in communication today.

    Hopefully this will be resolved in the future.

  23. Kris W Says:

    lmao, trying to have a civil conversation with a feminist bigot? No group in human history has ever gotten any rights by sitting down and having tea with the enemy.

    Until we make the personnel political and the political personnel our enemies will use our emotions and sense of “right and wrong” against us.

    The fact that Alver engaged successfully in a moral/emotional distraction argument disproves Alvers argument.

    People like Alver and other feminist female supremacist bigots(same goes for any type of supremacist bigot really) can only be dealt with by kicking their metaphorical teeth down their metaphorical throat.

    We didn’t get to this point by “being nice”. The MRM has been “nice” since the 90′s and what has it gotten? Nothing. MRM shown teeth for what half a decade and we are starting to see progress?

    Of course some dialogue is required but make those feminist bigots come down from their Ivory Tower. We have no need to coddle or endure the likes of them.

    And giving sexist trash the benefit of the doubt does more harm then good to the MRM. Because it show’s our enemies they can say and do whatever they want and we will still “play nice”. Sure I might be advocating radicalism, but it get’s things done.

  24. Allan Says:

    The MRM has lots to say in response to extreme views and events, but nothing really to say to people who do want to create something that works for and has a space for almost everyone. Ironically it’s almost completely defined by extreme feminism as extremely opposed to extreme feminism.

    It’s really nothing different or better either.

  25. Pelle Billing Says:

    Kris W,

    The options are not to either “be nice” or be as extreme as some feminists are.

    We can stand our ground, voice our opinions and live our lives in a way which is congruent with our deepest beliefs – without dehumanizing anyone or using the same kind of language that they do.

    Men’s issues have received a lot of attention in Sweden in the last year, as well as feminist critique. All of this was achieved while still being grounded and civil.

  26. Bittergubben Says:

    I agree with Kris W that there isn’t much point trying to argue with a serious feminist. Playing nice is pointless. However, I also agree with Billing that there is no need to be abusive.

    The thing is, instead of trying to argue with the feminist, put pressure on institutions. Most institutions, like newspapers and most other companies, want to make a buck and don’t really care about politics. If when they publish a misandry article, they get negative feedback – people who leave comments, send emails, write letters, call, show up in person – then the newspaper will soon tire of it, and stop printing such pieces.

    I think this is largely how society got so feminist in the first place. A university professor says something degrading about men? And nobody reacts, or there is even applause? Then the university won’t care. But when a professor says something degrading about women, there is a feminist uproar. The universities eventually adapt, don’t say degrading things about women, but do say degrading things about men.

    As long as men play it nice, the newspapers and universities and so forth will continue with the misandry that feminists managed to get them to adopt. When men are sufficiently frequent in applying pressures against such institutions, they will start adapting to that pressure.

    In applying such pressure, one might as well be civil. One often reaches someone in the institution who isn’t really responsible, but merely a front man. No reason to abuse him or her.

  27. Pelle Billing Says:

    Nicely put, Bittergubben.

  28. Roger Says:

    Although applying such pressure requires an infrastructure for information that is the privilige of the hegemonius views, and which is heavily abused by the feminist movement. I dont think it will make much diffrence for the mensmovement to do this until alternative views penetrate media; which is starting to happen in sweden due to diligent work from Pelle and other advocates for true equality.
    Dialogue will ALWAYS be the way to de-radicalise, de-polarize the debate and have facts and common sense become the guiding principle once more.

  29. David Marshall Says:

    Bitterguben: “When men are sufficiently frequent in applying pressures against such institutions, they will start adapting to that pressure.”

    That’s a great point, Bitterguben. The cultural milieu now, at least in the U.S., is that when one group complains, the company will listen, whether the complaint is justified or not.

    It’s even a little worse than that–actually, when certain groups complain, their complaint is readily accepted as fact, or at least as most likely true, and the other group is put in the position of proving their innocence.

    The first step is learning how to respond quickly and efficiently, whether there is an event like this one or an accusation of discrimination. That will help create a situation in which both sides will be heard and where people are presumed innocent.

  30. Danny Says:

    Alver Says:

    July 20th, 2011 at 2:35 am

    In other words “man up”?

    Look I don’t pretend that misogyny doesn’t exist however if you look at two recent events I think you’ll see what Pelle and many of the folks here are talking about.

    If you recall a milk company recently launched an ad campaign in which milk was being advertised as something men should buy for women as proof they did something right and as something to alleviate PMS. People called the sexism for what it was and the ad compaign has been pulled. At the same time people wrote in to CBS, FCC, and other places to call out the sexism of the commentary on that episode of The Talk and a few days later they (almost) issued an apology.

    My question to you is, which one got more media coverage? Which event did you see on CNN, MSN, Fox News, and nearly every other news outlet in the country? Which one was actually discussed on the national level despite them both happening on a nation level (a nationwide campaign vs a show that is aired on a major network to a nationwide audience)? Which got the spotlight while the other was pretty much limited to men’s rights bloggers? (On the other hand I think you would have a hard time finding a major feminist blog that didn’t talk about that milk ad.)

    But yet and still men are expected to just “take it in good stride” or something like that.

    And I second David Marshall’s challenge to find a clip of a group of men laughing and joking about a woman having her genitals mutilated and it not grabbing major attention.

  31. Alver Says:

    Eagle33,

    I am the guy that helped the girls pull your pants down. It was my masculine energy that stripped you butt naked and tied you to the flag pole. I was the boyfriend that threatened you with masculine energy, to fear you into using feminine energy at such a young age. So by the time you caught up to realizing what masculine energy was all about, you about exploded your head the way you sound.

    I have been neck deep in masculine since I was born, so bad that feminine energy does not exist for me. Just a few years ago I noticed feminine energy just from having children. So the ideology of my childhood is that a woman can only make my food, suck my dick, fuck me, and do everything that I say. Try living a life with NO feminine energy…none at all…where doing the simpilist thing like smiling at a star will get you a black eye or a busted lip. There is nothing you can tell me about masculine energy…I am learning more about feminine energy…

    Now that you have found your masculine, you are continuing the bullshit. See, when you were bullied by the masculine, you used the feminie to “accept” (a feminine trait) what was being done. Your whole argument came from a “masculine” place.

    Eagle33? The eagle is the symbol for enlightenment and 33 is the master teacher number. Try to live up to your name.

    Perhaps you should re-read my post. Because you mis-quoted me. I did not suggest the following:

    “Yet, you come here suggesting that because women have been given worse treatment in the past that it justifies the hurt they dish out?”

    Nothing justifies bad use of the masculine. What I did say is that SOMEONE has to make the first apology. And…since historically the masculine has been socially and politically abused by men…it is logical for men, in general, to make the first apology.

    Telling me “screw you” is so very “masculine”. So I am going to close from a masculine perspective using the feminine as a tool, “Have a good day.”

  32. Alver Says:

    Kris W.,

    “Sure I might be advocating radicalism, but it get’s things done.”

    It’s thinking like this that got us in this mess to begin with.

  33. Alver Says:

    Can somebody please tell me why there is so much focus on the feminist movement???

    Feminists are not the symbol of women as a whole just as the Misogynistic men do not represent men as a whole.

    Those of you who are so focused on this group have no room to cry when women lump you in with all evil men…

  34. Alver Says:

    titforetat,

    I almost lost my lunch after reading this new age, psychobabble. Really? Like I want this kind of man talking for me. Sorry bud, but I have more forgiveness, acceptance, receiving and patience than my daughters mother. I guess that would make me feminine, I think? You want to say sorry to someone, say it to all the forgiving, accepting, loving men you just insulted. I guess that last line would make me more masculine, I think?

    Now you’re gettin’ it. And that goes double for the ex…

    Just a reality man. If you met me, you wouldn’t think there was anything feminine about me…or the way conduct myself. I have been a poster child for the American Male A$$hole…that is why I know what I am talking about…

  35. Eagle33 Says:

    Man, I come back from a much needed break from triggering events only to find myself reading something even more unbelievable.

    Alver: “I am the guy that helped the girls pull your pants down. It was my masculine energy that stripped you butt naked and tied you to the flag pole. I was the boyfriend that threatened you with masculine energy, to fear you into using feminine energy at such a young age. So by the time you caught up to realizing what masculine energy was all about, you about exploded your head the way you sound.”

    Oookaay. Right. So, those girls and women are not to blame. “Masculine Energy” is. That certainly makes me feel so much better.

    Alver: “I have been neck deep in masculine since I was born, so bad that feminine energy does not exist for me. Just a few years ago I noticed feminine energy just from having children. So the ideology of my childhood is that a woman can only make my food, suck my dick, fuck me, and do everything that I say. Try living a life with NO feminine energy…none at all…where doing the simpilist thing like smiling at a star will get you a black eye or a busted lip. There is nothing you can tell me about masculine energy…I am learning more about feminine energy…”

    How about you try living a life where there is no support for what you went through? How about that?

    Alver: “Now that you have found your masculine, you are continuing the bullshit. See, when you were bullied by the masculine, you used the feminie to “accept” (a feminine trait) what was being done. Your whole argument came from a “masculine” place. ”

    Wrong. My argument comes from a place of genuine hurt; a human being hurt who didn’t deserve it and has yet to find support for one half of that hurt. Which is perpetuated by your philosophy of using “Masculine Energy” to excuse the half the population who did the hurt.

    Alver: “Eagle33? The eagle is the symbol for enlightenment and 33 is the master teacher number. Try to live up to your name.”

    No, it’s an avatar. Nothing more. And thank you for the passive-aggressive insult. Much appreciated.

    Alver: “Nothing justifies bad use of the masculine. What I did say is that SOMEONE has to make the first apology. And…since historically the masculine has been socially and politically abused by men…it is logical for men, in general, to make the first apology.”

    That still reads accepting what the girls and women did to me. Sorry.

    Alver: “Telling me “screw you” is so very “masculine”. So I am going to close from a masculine perspective using the feminine as a tool, “Have a good day.”

    Let me make it clear to you Alver:

    I happen to be a survior of abuse in the past. When you say that “Masculine Energy” did it instead of those girls and women, I find it doubly offensive. So, yeah, saying “Screw You” is me telling you that you offended me deeply.

    I’m done with this topic, seriously. If I ever encounter anyone who denies what the girls and women did to me, I’ll…

    …Forget it.

  36. Allan Says:

    I won’t deny it.

    As I’ve before elsewhere to you I think, I created and lead a group for men who have been victimized, in part so they can be heard and believed. Something like a third of the time, the perps are female. I wish you could come to it because I think that experience of “being heard” repeated, in time, would help take some of the pain away when you engage with people like Alver here. Gender politics is full of them and I can see it’s not safe for you at all.

    Feminist inspired women are heavily committed to maintaining and re-creating the climate of about 1950 for male victims by their actions. They SAY they’re inclusive of all, serving people in society, etc, etc, but when you ask for action, you get silence and then resistance. Some privately agree with me but they won’t speak out or support me. It’s about vengeance for the most part.

    I’m not optimistic. I think we’re headed down a very long dark road. True change is much harder than it appears. The old patterns just re-emerge with new clothes and become entrenched again.

  37. Pelle Billing Says:

    Alver,

    Could you please define “masculine energy” and “feminine energy” for me. Unless you can provide a clear, simple definition of those terms they are nonsense in this discussion.

  38. T. Rose Says:

    @Alver

    Acceptance is not “feminine energy” its simply there,and technically what Eagle33 wrote did not imply acceptance of those dastardly events either,rather acknowledgement and to come and up and write it out to the world wide web into everyone’s eye,that kind of courage is about as masculine as you can get (By your crazy logic). Arguably more so than the bully who didn’t have the courage to do all these wrongs under supervision

    Instead he (this bully) relied on the feminine energy of sneakiness

    Frankly you and I could do this all day,blaming problems and then sorting them out into “energies”,but that crap will get you no where,it solves nothing and only further allows the real perps to get away [no matter what sex/gender].

  39. Eagle33 Says:

    Allan: “As I’ve before elsewhere to you I think, I created and lead a group for men who have been victimized, in part so they can be heard and believed. Something like a third of the time, the perps are female. I wish you could come to it because I think that experience of “being heard” repeated, in time, would help take some of the pain away when you engage with people like Alver here. Gender politics is full of them and I can see it’s not safe for you at all.”

    I’d love to come. But seeing as how I don’t have the funds neccessary, no plan, no passport, no free time either, it makes me lose a little faith knowing that something exists but there’s no means of connecting when you’re stuck in a place with very little services available except the people who do care.

  40. Alver Says:

    Pelle,

    For clarification within the context of this discussion. Understand that for the sake of simplicity I used an easy to understand web site. It is with the understanding that these characteristics or traits are attributed to the yin and yang, a spiritual concept that has been around for centuries. It is the ebbing and flowing of these energies, their synergy, that propels us forward in technology and society. I will look for a more scientifically accredited recourse if you prefer, but it won’t change the value of the following characteristics:

    Masculine Energy vs Feminine Energy

    doing vs being

    aggression vs surrender

    analytical vs intuitive

    concrete vs abstract

    impatient vs patient

    striving vs tranquil

    rushing vs nurturing

    assertive vs receptive

    left brain vs right brain

    thrusting vs receiving

    organization vs synthesizing

    logical vs creative

    busy vs calm

    hard vs soft

    controlling vs allowing

    (“Masculine and feminine,” )

    Masculine and feminine energy. (n.d.). Retrieved from http://www.fromthestars.com/page128.html

    Once you have a strong grasp of these opposing natures you can start to see them in simple conversation, when a person is switching back and forth to communicate. You can also start to see them in art, architectural design, and quantum theory if you want to go there, Einstein did.

    Hope this helps.

  41. Alver Says:

    Pelle,

    Just in case there is still any confusion about what masculine vs feminine energy is I have included a section of an article I wrote on exactly what you ask for (which other people that posted in your other threads seem to have a firm grasp on. I saw some very compelling conversations utilizing this concept):

    What is Masculine Energy?

    That is an excellent question that looks like it would have an easy answer. Unfortunately it doesn’t mean a power source consisting of pole throwing, beer chugging, gun shooting, gut bealching, bad ass gas passing, with a prowess for deftly handling a car at 102 miles per hour. Though it would be nice if it did.

    Masculine energy is exactly that…masculine…energy. I am not going to go into energy because anyone who has seen a two year old fresh from a nap and hopped up on candy knows what that is. The masculine part is a little trickier.

    It really doesn’t have anything to do with being a man, the male of the human species. It has more to do with the energy we draw from having those “male” or masculine characteristics. Within each of us, male or female, we have two kinds of energy that we tap into. They happen to be masculine and feminine. They work like Yin (feminine) and Yang (masculine).

    Depending on what you are trying to accomplish, the world’s best bag session or whispering sweet nothings to your girl, you will utilize either your masculine or feminine energy. I know it’s confusing.

    So, think about the activity or goal you are trying to accomplish, how you go about it, and you will start to see which “energy“ source you are pulling from.

    I like to think of myself as somewhat progressive however, when it comes to the depths of “spirituality” I have been a bit of a toe dipper. Like many of us, my youth was spent firmly grounded on the shores of religion. Ironically, as much as society pits spirituality against religion, if one takes an unbiased evaluation of both, there are patterns of compatibility that start to reveal themselves (but that is another topic for discussion).

    For men, masculine energy is a no brainer, it’s the feminine energy that we have a harder time with. As much as I hate to admit it, we need it. What’s worse is…we need it now more than ever. Men, learning to utilize this severly underused resource does not make you GAY. It actually makes you more powerful.

    There is an article put out by PUA (an excellent site that gives tips on how to snag and seduce a chick) that talks about the polarity between men and women and the scientific juxtaposition of the two. There appears to be an almost push/pull effect between the two of relative proportion. Reading the article gives one the impression that men and women are much like magnets. The “polarizing” effect is highly dependent on how much feminine or masculine energy each individual sex is giving out respectively. I highly recommend reading the full article http://www.pualingo.com/pua-definitions/polarity/ .

    Still a little fuzzy on the whole masculine vs feminine energy concept? Let me take you back to that Yin Yang. When we look at a Yin Yang we see perfect proportions of Yin and Yang. Yin represents the negative, dark, or feminine energy of the Universe, the polarized version of Yang; positive, light, and masculine characteristics. Now split the Yin Yang in half and look closer at Yang.

    Within the Yang half is another circle. Next, imagine that the circle is a smaller Yin Yang. In order for Yang to be perfectly balanced or stable, it must first balance its own, respective, Yin Yang. And so must masculine energy learn to balance its inner or “core” feminine and masculine energy. Think of it as masculine energy’s power source, a spiritual battery.

    I hope I have demystified masculine energy for you. I will be talking about it a lot, especially in relationship with feminine energy and how we can use them to redefine what it means to be a man in today’s America.

  42. Pelle Billing Says:

    Alver,

    I’ve read David Deida. I’m familiar with yin and yang. I’ve done meditation and qi gong for years.

    Yet, I cannot understand your use of “masculine energy” and “feminine energy”. You talk about masculine as if it is destructive and bad, whereas feminine is constructive and good. In fact, you talk about men being bad, and women being good (or allude to that very strongly).

    But even those who believe in masculine and feminine energy, don’t teach about it that way. They say that both energies are needed, and there are dysfunctional variants of both.

    Yes, men can cause destruction. But men have also built our civilization which eliminated a lot of death and suffering (eg. women giving birth hardly ever die any more).

    Yes, women can have very nurturing characteristics. But they are also the majority of child abusers and they instigate more than half of domestic violence.

    So in my book you are not using the concepts correctly. I don’t like the concepts at all in a stringent discussion about gender and society. but if they are to be used – it’s irresponsible to use them to demonize men and put women on a pedestal.

  43. Janes Barrow Says:

    Hi Pelle

    “They say that both energies are needed, and there are dysfunctional variants of both.” Indeed! And, happily, of course there are healthy variants of both, as you allude to in your example. I agree completely.

    My main point in this comment is to check some detail with you Pelle. You say that women are “the majority of child abusers and they instigate more than half of domestic violence”. Can you point us in the direction of any specific research that backs this up please?

    Cheers

    James

  44. Pelle Billing Says:

    Child abuse:
    http://www.americanvalues.org/pdfs/researchbrief7.pdf

  45. Pelle Billing Says:

    Instigating violence:
    http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

  46. Pelle Billing Says:

    This is not to say that men are affected more by domestic violence.

    But I think it can be illuminating to isolate a couple of variables that turn people’s beliefs upside down.

    Most men still think that women are more innocent, more “good”, more generous, etc than men. My message is that men and women are (on average) just as good or just as bad, we simply act our tendencies out in somewhat different ways.

  47. TitforTat Says:

    I have been a poster child for the American Male A$$hole…that is why I know what I am talking about…(Alver)

    Interesting, well I guess if you really knew what you were talking about you would be aware we arent all American. ;)

  48. Things Are Bad Says:

    “I don’t have to imagine “a group of men, with a male audience, had talked and joked this way after the mutilation of a woman.” It has been done for centuries. And, in a metaphorical way we still do it today. To say that we as men don’t, would be naive.”

    Utterly ridiculous.

    Men have always protected women from harm. IT has been done for centuries – no, actually, forEVER. Men would have been the ones hanging a man “centuries ago” if he had mutilated his wife in such a fashion. They wouldn’t be laughing about it, moron.

  49. Pelle Billing Says:

    No personal attacks please. I’m talking about “moron”.

  50. Allan Says:

    Eagle33: “I’d love to come. But seeing as how I don’t have the funds neccessary, no plan, no passport, no free time either, it makes me lose a little faith knowing that something exists but there’s no means of connecting when you’re stuck in a place with very little services available except the people who do care.”

    Perhaps Pelle could put us in touch by e-mail and we could continue about this in e-mail, phone, Skype. That would be something you could do. I notice you focused on all the things you don’t have the power to do, which is of course what you learn if you are victimized as a child. We learn a profound powerlessness as the core of our experience of living. Powerful action is associated with perpetrating. It’s threatening. Feared. Hurts someone, is unbalanced, is non-mutual. Ulterior motives. (What does he REALLY want?) etc. But you are no longer actually a child so you have more options. Healing comes through risking having a relationship with someone that is mutual, empowering, safe, develops trust. It’s hard to do if you’ve never experienced or seen something like that before. You mentioned faith. I hope you have faith at least that something like that is available to you.

  51. Eagle33 Says:

    Allan: “Perhaps Pelle could put us in touch by e-mail and we could continue about this in e-mail, phone, Skype. That would be something you could do.”

    Yes, Allan. If anything, I want to continue this conversation through e-mail. Because I’m tired of just accepting the fact there’s nothing for me here in terms of services specifically related to abuse from girls and women.

    Phone or Skype…I don’t know. I’m very particular about speaking over the phone or skype to someone I’ve never met. Can we at least stick with e-mail for now?

    Allan: “Healing comes through risking having a relationship with someone that is mutual, empowering, safe, develops trust. It’s hard to do if you’ve never experienced or seen something like that before.”

    I have relatioionships with other women, work with a few even.

    It’s just…well…I have a slight aversion to the “Strong Female Lead” in stories, movies, tv, etc because 90% of the time they use their assertiveness to belittle the supporting male characters, dominate them. At worst, they make fun of them.

    Worser still, the strong female lead comes at the expense of the supporting male characters so you’ll have a densly layerd female lead while the males are stuck being two-dimensional dopes or less important.

    The only stories I love with a strong female lead are “The Hunger Games” trilogy of books. Because the male supporting characters are just as complex and well-developed.

    I’m sure this relates to my being bullied and abused by girls and women, fear of this narrartive in stories.

  52. Alver Says:

    Pelle,

    You almost leave me speechless…almost.

    How on Earth you can interpret the list of characteristics as an argument that one is better than the other, or:

    “You talk about masculine as if it is destructive and bad, whereas feminine is constructive and good. In fact, you talk about men being bad, and women being good (or allude to that very strongly).”

    …is so beyond logical comprehension I can’t even have a constructive argument with you. Nothing I said remotely leaned towards the bias…it was OBJECTIVE. It is a clinical look at two NECESSARY forces, energies, realities, whatever label you want to put on it, in order to sustain BALANCE. This balance is necessary for humans and nature.

    I recommend that you re-read for author intent not your personal interpretation based on the purpose of your blog. Exactly the error you made is why this whole Misogony vs Misandrey is going to continue AT A SNAILS PACE.

    Why is it when the sky is blue, everybody and their mother will try to convince you it is any color BUT blue?

    There is nothing off about my definition. I have rooms full of international (not just American) college students that use this definition and can talk intelligently on this topic, understanding the very concepts that seem to missed by a mile in this discussion thread. Thank god it will be the younger generation to make any real progress, because clearly, if it were left up to our generation we may as well go back to the Dark Ages, where everyone sits around pointing fingers.

    They understand accepting(feminine) is the opposite of giving(masculine). Sometimes it is necessary to GIVE of yourself (like an idea that changes the world); women do it AND men do it. Sometimes it is necessary to be ACCEPTING of another’s contribution (like an idea that changes the world); men do it and women do it.

    In a POSITIVE context ALL of the traits of the masculine and the feminine are AMAZING and POWERFUL. In a negative environment ALL of the characteristics of the feminine and the masculine are DESTRUCTIVE.

    Your argument for what you think is my opinion is like saying all male pipe fittings are “bad and destructive” and all female pipe fittings are “good and constructive”.
    Come on man, they’re freakin’ pipe fittings not men and women. They serve a purpose…that’s it…end of discussion.

  53. Pelle Billing Says:

    Alver,

    The reason I misinterpret you is that you have such a negative view on men. If you had come here and painted a more balanced picture of how the genders tend to behave then I likely would have responded differently.

    I also think that any kind of list of “masculine vs feminine” is a dangerous tool. Somehow people want to take all kinds of opposites and label them either masculine or feminine but I don’t think it works that way. I’ve been down that path and it didn’t work.

    This is not to say that we cannot identify differences between the sexes, nor that we cannot (perhaps) identify the two energies and penetrating and receiving/circular. But it’s so easy to try to stuff to many things into the theory and it simply doesn’t work.

  54. Allan Says:

    Eagle33,

    I hope to hear from you. We can communicate any way you choose–it’s up to you.

    The media can really be troublesome, I agree. Negative comments and portrayals of men are just so common and difficult to counter. That stuff sets me off sometimes too.

  55. Jesse Says:

    Masculine Energy vs Feminine Energy

    doing vs being

    aggression vs surrender

    analytical vs intuitive

    concrete vs abstract

    impatient vs patient

    striving vs tranquil

    rushing vs nurturing

    assertive vs receptive

    left brain vs right brain

    thrusting vs receiving

    organization vs synthesizing

    logical vs creative

    busy vs calm

    hard vs soft

    controlling vs allowing

    The alleged masculine traits that could be construed as negative include the following:

    aggressive
    controlling
    busy
    rushing
    impatient
    concrete (as opposed to abstract)
    logical (as opposed to creative)

    It’s not much of a stretch to claim that the first five, taken together, comprise a fair definition of the pejorative “asshole”. Combine that with a skeptical interpretation of the last two traits of questionable value, and the above list of adjectives describse an asshole robot.

    (I think that most people would consider abstract, creative thinking to be higher-level than concrete, logical thinking. If you are sufficiently logical and can grasp basic concrete facts, more logic and attention to detail won’t do much for you. Competence in logical, concrete thinking, while not particularly common, is ultimately pedestrian. True creativity and abstract reasoning ability is much rarer and far more potent given a sufficient grasp of logic and facts.)

    All of alleged female traits that could be interpreted as faults are really only faults in times of adversity. Thus, men are subtly portrayed as a necessary evil.

  56. Eagle33 Says:

    Allan: “I hope to hear from you. We can communicate any way you choose–it’s up to you. ”

    Please let it be e-mail. I wonder if there’s a way we can exchange e-mails in private.

    Allan: “The media can really be troublesome, I agree. Negative comments and portrayals of men are just so common and difficult to counter. That stuff sets me off sometimes too.”

    Which is why I’m hesitant to see Pixar’s new movie “Brave” coming in 2012. Because it follows the same old cliche of “Strong Female Character, Bumbling Male Comic Relife”. It broke my heart that they sold their soul to the devil.

  57. Pelle Billing Says:

    Eagle33 and Allan,

    I’ve sent an email to you. If that doesn’t work, then please contact me using the contact form on this site so I have an email address to you that works.

  58. IceGiant Says:

    Some people are just psychotic. Psychotic people are everywhere. When a man performs incest and forced rape upon his daughter or younger female relative, do we scream “misogyny!”? Why not? (And according to my psychology studies, incest-rape is a very common thing in families, yes male-to-female. Yet no one screams ‘misogyny’!) Damage to the female genitals are done. Yet no one claims “misogyny.”

    What about, recently, a report of some guy waking up to have his penis cut off (strange story) since no one knows who did it or what gender it was, it might be male! So let’s not call it “misandry” because it might not be female! xD

    This is nonsense. What the psycho-woman did was insanely cruel. But to call it misandry seems inherently sexist: “She’s a woman who did it to a man, so it’s a man-crime!”

    I believe both genders are equal (as humans) so if a man commits the same crime to another man, why isn’t it considered “misandry”? Hmm……

  59. Zoomorph Says:

    Jesse: you just uncovered the reality under Allan’s reasoning. He seems NOT to be aware of it. Brilliant…

    Eagle33, beware. You might learn a lot from the experience, but it might not be pleasant.

  60. Tamen Says:

    Zoomorph: I am pretty sure you’re confusing Alver with Allan as Allan hasn’t said anything about feminine vs. masculine energy while Alver has said plenty. You’d be wise to be a bit more certain before you warn people off.

  61. Zoomorph Says:

    Point taken. My wrong.

  62. Steve Says:

    Here is a prime example of misandry taken to the next level … A four year old boy gets suspended for sexual harrassment …

    http://voices.yahoo.com/4-year-old-boy-suspended-sexual-harassment-139309.html?cat=25

    Another example taken too far …

    http://reason.com/blog/2011/11/23/parents-sue-da-for-charging-their-6-year

    The internet is full of stories like this


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